News Forum - Outdoor mask mandate to be ditched in Indonesia as infections continue to fall

[Thaiger]

From today, people in Indonesia are no longer required to wear masks outdoors, as Covid-19 infections continue to fall. According to a Reuters report, Indonesian President Joko Widodo says “the pandemic is getting more and more controlled”, removing the need for an outdoor mask mandate. However, he goes on to say that a mask mandate on public transport and other indoor locations remains in force, adding that the elderly and people with underlying health conditions or coughs should also continue to wear masks outside. In addition to lifting the outdoor mask mandate, Indonesia will ease testing requirements for international and […]

The story Outdoor mask mandate to be ditched in Indonesia as infections continue to fall as seen on Thaiger News.

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[WR2]

The stupidest, illogical, meaningless, ineffective and purely virtue signaling policy of all.  Yet still in effect in Thailand.  Because science, right?  Show me the science that says cloth or even surgical masks outdoors do anything.  Even indoors anything but n95 is a show, and even n95 are only marginally effective.  After 2 years of mask mandates worldwide with no effect at all on local transmission rates, and you still think masks do anything?

[Smithydog]

13 minutes ago, WR2 said:

The stupidest, illogical, meaningless, ineffective and purely virtue signaling policy of all.  Yet still in effect in Thailand.  Because science, right?  Show me the science that says cloth or even surgical masks outdoors do anything.  Even indoors anything but n95 is a show, and even n95 are only marginally effective.  After 2 years of mask mandates worldwide with no effect at all on local transmission rates, and you still think masks do anything?

Perhaps this study from March this year will help answer your question which includes this statement.

"If you wear a surgical mask or an FFP2 mask, the risk of infection is reduced to such an extent that it is practically negligible -- even if you're only standing one meter away from an infected person,"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220301093655.htm

I know people like to challenge mask wearing on this basis. However, the problem to me is not the masks themselves. After all, if you put a barrier in front of your mouth and nose when you cough or sneeze, the volume of particles going forward beyond the barrier is reduced. Try it by spitting water from your mouth into your hand. That is elementary stuff really.

The real issue is one that people simply cannot be monitored to ensure compliance to any real level. Sure, an unmasked person is noticed amongst a group of masked people the same way as a masked person is noticed amongst the unmasked. Our eyes and brain tend to notice differences, something window merchandisers know and use to attract people!

But how often are they really challenged by someone in authority. The most likely answer is rarely. Except for isolated small groups, there is not the manpower to do it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Our natural response is to rebel. I did at first as the mask made me have a gag reflex until I got used to wearing it.  But can I say honestly I have followed all the rules, worn it appropriately at all times, kept changing it, not touching it etc. No...of course not. Remember the early days when you saw people wearing clear plastic face visors over face masks!

There was no education at the start for people who had not used them. How to wear them properly, how often to change, what do do if your nose is itchy etc. And then add on the best of them....being allowed to remove it when amongst a crowded group of people when eating! I was taught to eat with my mouth closed, but doesn't seem as commonplace these days.

In my opinion, mask mandates were only ever going to work if people saw and believed the necessity for them and maintained that. The more you tell people, the less they want to do it. (That rebellion factor again). At best it had a short term or limited life span for most. It was never fully monitorable/enforceable and always doomed to drop off in compliance as people tired of it or got lazy. That is the way most humans work.

To me, mask mandates are simply not really enforceable to purpose. They have outgrown their short term use and have now simply become silly and unnecessary as a "legal requirement". Let people chose to wear masks or not. Encourage them fine. But don't tell them!

 

[KaptainRob]

TV News presenters, whether solo, 2 or more, all wearing diapers on their faces.  Some faces are almost totally covered ... madness!

[ExpatPattaya]

1 minute ago, KaptainRob said:

TV News presenters, whether solo, 2 or more, all wearing diapers on their faces.  Some faces are almost totally covered ... madness!

Not sure how respect for others health and wellness is "madness" . 

Whether a flu or coronavirus or a simple cold, why would you want to risk giving it to others when simply covering your face, coughing into a handkerchief, and social distancing can reduce transmission.  

[KaptainRob]

1 minute ago, ExpatPattaya said:

Not sure how respect for others health and wellness is "madness" . 

Whether a flu or coronavirus or a simple cold, why would you want to risk giving it to others when simply covering your face, coughing into a handkerchief, and social distancing can reduce transmission.  

Don't twist my words, I did NOT post a general comment.

Majority of western TV News presenters have a clear screen between them which offers sufficient protection.  Wearing a mask on TV in a studio setting is madness.   

In a crowded public environment I have no problem with mask wearing, on flights, trains and buses I see 100% compliance.

[Fanta]

Just now, KaptainRob said:

Wearing a mask on TV in a studio setting is madness

It reinforces the message that everyone should wear a mask. 

[KaptainRob]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

It reinforces the message that everyone should wear a mask. 

Thai's are very compliant and health conscious so IMHO the time for that sort of 'reminder' has passed.

[Manu]

41 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Perhaps this study from March this year will help answer your question which includes this statement.

"If you wear a surgical mask or an FFP2 mask, the risk of infection is reduced to such an extent that it is practically negligible -- even if you're only standing one meter away from an infected person,"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220301093655.htm

I know people like to challenge mask wearing on this basis. However, the problem to me is not the masks themselves. After all, if you put a barrier in front of your mouth and nose when you cough or sneeze, the volume of particles going forward beyond the barrier is reduced. Try it by spitting water from your mouth into your hand. That is elementary stuff really.

The real issue is one that people simply cannot be monitored to ensure compliance to any real level. Sure, an unmasked person is noticed amongst a group of masked people the same way as a masked person is noticed amongst the unmasked. Our eyes and brain tend to notice differences, something window merchandisers know and use to attract people!

But how often are they really challenged by someone in authority. The most likely answer is rarely. Except for isolated small groups, there is not the manpower to do it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Our natural response is to rebel. I did at first as the mask made me have a gag reflex until I got used to wearing it.  But can I say honestly I have followed all the rules, worn it appropriately at all times, kept changing it, not touching it etc. No...of course not. Remember the early days when you saw people wearing clear plastic face visors over face masks!

There was no education at the start for people who had not used them. How to wear them properly, how often to change, what do do if your nose is itchy etc. And then add on the best of them....being allowed to remove it when amongst a crowded group of people when eating! I was taught to eat with my mouth closed, but doesn't seem as commonplace these days.

In my opinion, mask mandates were only ever going to work if people saw and believed the necessity for them and maintained that. The more you tell people, the less they want to do it. (That rebellion factor again). At best it had a short term or limited life span for most. It was never fully monitorable/enforceable and always doomed to drop off in compliance as people tired of it or got lazy. That is the way most humans work.

To me, mask mandates are simply not really enforceable to purpose. They have outgrown their short term use and have now simply become silly and unnecessary as a "legal requirement". Let people chose to wear masks or not. Encourage them fine. But don't tell them!

Great conclusion.

The thing is, when even scientists disagree with outdoor transmission, it makes mask wearing as a "legal requirement" a weird decision at best. In this article (https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/should-masks-be-worn-outdoors/), Dr Muge Cevik at the University of St Andrews and colleagues seem very clear that "outdoor transmission contributes very little to overall infection rates and efforts should focus on reducing indoor transmission". 

Their conclusion on mandatory masks : “However, these mandates do little to tackle the real transmission risks or to address outcomes of socioeconomic inequities and structural racism, driving a disproportionate number of the infections and consistent disparities observed worldwide”.

There is a little more involved with mass mask wearing than just stopping transmission (or not), and it is nothing positive.

And amongst all other people like us that are not scientists, one may listen to one scientist who is for the mask outdoor, the other another scientist who says it does nothing. Who is right or wrong? Which of these two scientists work is a "legal requirement" imposed by a government based on (if based on any at all)?

[JJJ]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

Perhaps this study from March this year will help answer your question which includes this statement.

"If you wear a surgical mask or an FFP2 mask, the risk of infection is reduced to such an extent that it is practically negligible -- even if you're only standing one meter away from an infected person,"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/03/220301093655.htm

I know people like to challenge mask wearing on this basis. However, the problem to me is not the masks themselves. After all, if you put a barrier in front of your mouth and nose when you cough or sneeze, the volume of particles going forward beyond the barrier is reduced. Try it by spitting water from your mouth into your hand. That is elementary stuff really.

The real issue is one that people simply cannot be monitored to ensure compliance to any real level. Sure, an unmasked person is noticed amongst a group of masked people the same way as a masked person is noticed amongst the unmasked. Our eyes and brain tend to notice differences, something window merchandisers know and use to attract people!

But how often are they really challenged by someone in authority. The most likely answer is rarely. Except for isolated small groups, there is not the manpower to do it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Our natural response is to rebel. I did at first as the mask made me have a gag reflex until I got used to wearing it.  But can I say honestly I have followed all the rules, worn it appropriately at all times, kept changing it, not touching it etc. No...of course not. Remember the early days when you saw people wearing clear plastic face visors over face masks!

There was no education at the start for people who had not used them. How to wear them properly, how often to change, what do do if your nose is itchy etc. And then add on the best of them....being allowed to remove it when amongst a crowded group of people when eating! I was taught to eat with my mouth closed, but doesn't seem as commonplace these days.

In my opinion, mask mandates were only ever going to work if people saw and believed the necessity for them and maintained that. The more you tell people, the less they want to do it. (That rebellion factor again). At best it had a short term or limited life span for most. It was never fully monitorable/enforceable and always doomed to drop off in compliance as people tired of it or got lazy. That is the way most humans work.

To me, mask mandates are simply not really enforceable to purpose. They have outgrown their short term use and have now simply become silly and unnecessary as a "legal requirement". Let people chose to wear masks or not. Encourage them fine. But don't tell them!

On the study, either a real world big data study or controlled study is needed to prove effectiveness. A model like this paper is just theory.

Of course South Korea was a highly mask complaint country and more than 50% of the population had confirmed tests almost all this year. 

Agree with your other sentiments. Thailand air travel is only back to 17% compared to 60% for Singapore and American airlines have record traffic.  The reason is obvious  

Thailand’s snail’s pace at removing unnecessary restrictions hurts everyone.  Thailand has been heading toward a recession for a while. Remove the masks, open all businesses and welcome tourists before it’s too late!
 

 

[BigHewer]

4 hours ago, Thaiger said:

From today, people in Indonesia are no longer required to wear masks outdoors, as Covid-19 infections continue to fall.

It wasn’t widely complied with anyway in a lot of areas from what I’ve seen. I just came back from 3 weeks in Indonesia. 

Sanur / Ubud: less than 10% of people wore masks (indoors or outdoors)

East Jakarta / Bekasi: 50% compliance

Central Jakarta: 90% or thereabouts 

[Cabra]

The Japanese and S.Koreans will probably elect to wear mask for some time to come. Not surprised, really. Wouldn't be surprised to see Thailand carry on this masking farce for some time to come as well.

[billywillyjones]

Fauci himself said the masks are not effective but the sheeple continue to stubornly hold on to this belief regardless of sufficient proof.  Just like they believed multiple vaccinations would prevent them from getting Covid.

[JJJ]

39 minutes ago, BigHewer said:

It wasn’t widely complied with anyway in a lot of areas from what I’ve seen. I just came back from 3 weeks in Indonesia. 

Sanur / Ubud: less than 10% of people wore masks (indoors or outdoors)

East Jakarta / Bekasi: 50% compliance

Central Jakarta: 90% or thereabouts 

Wait people didn’t wear masks and everyone didn’t die!? Amazing. 

[rc1]

Any public health restriction should have benefits that outweigh the costs.

Mass masking does not provide enough benefit anymore which is why almost every country in the world as dropped it.

 

Thailand must be one of a rapidly dwindling handful of countries still mandating masks outside, and maybe the only one where TV presenters are wearing them.

It's toxic to the psychological well being of Thais as well as significant economic and social damage, and to tourism. 

It needs to end now, time to move on.

 

 

[Smithydog]

1 hour ago, Cabra said:

The Japanese and S.Koreans will probably elect to wear mask for some time to come. Not surprised, really. Wouldn't be surprised to see Thailand carry on this masking farce for some time to come as well.

The cultural attitude to wearing a mask by choice has been around for a very long time as noted in this article. Well before current mask mandates and Covid-19 existed.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/culture-shocked/202005/why-was-mask-wearing-popular-in-asia-even-covid-19

What has equally been around for a long time is the seemingly need for some to display their prejudices and unnecessarily label what people do through a level of ignorance. 

[Manu]

4 hours ago, rc1 said:

Any public health restriction should have benefits that outweigh the costs.

Mass masking does not provide enough benefit anymore which is why almost every country in the world as dropped it.

Thailand must be one of a rapidly dwindling handful of countries still mandating masks outside, and maybe the only one where TV presenters are wearing them.

It's toxic to the psychological well being of Thais as well as significant economic and social damage, and to tourism. 

It needs to end now, time to move on.

Spot on, simple as that.

[Highlandman]

8 hours ago, Fanta said:

It reinforces the message that everyone should wear a mask. 

It's lunatic propaganda. Why didn't every other country do this? Why only Thailand? Something is not right here...

[Highlandman]

5 hours ago, rc1 said:

Any public health restriction should have benefits that outweigh the costs.

Mass masking does not provide enough benefit anymore which is why almost every country in the world as dropped it.

Thailand must be one of a rapidly dwindling handful of countries still mandating masks outside, and maybe the only one where TV presenters are wearing them.

It's toxic to the psychological well being of Thais as well as significant economic and social damage, and to tourism. 

It needs to end now, time to move on.

It is the only one where TV presenters are wearing one, with the exception of Lao Star TV, which naturally copied Thailand. I have seen some isolated examples of mask and/or shield wearing on screen in Cambodia and the Philippines, but neither country has news presenters wearing masks.

[Highlandman]

7 hours ago, BigHewer said:

It wasn’t widely complied with anyway in a lot of areas from what I’ve seen. I just came back from 3 weeks in Indonesia. 

Sanur / Ubud: less than 10% of people wore masks (indoors or outdoors)

East Jakarta / Bekasi: 50% compliance

Central Jakarta: 90% or thereabouts 

I think it must have gone down a lot because last year and probably up until January/February this year, it was widely complied with. Last year some foreigners were deported for not wearing masks in Bali, while others were simply made to do push-ups.

Like Phuket and Phangan, which were strict (especially Phuket) from the beginning up until around December of last year or January of this year, as of right now, mask wearing outdoors has significantly declined while I understand that on Phangan even indoor mask wearing is rare. This, despite the mandate in Thailand not having been lifted yet.

[Highlandman]

10 hours ago, WR2 said:

The stupidest, illogical, meaningless, ineffective and purely virtue signaling policy of all.  Yet still in effect in Thailand.  Because science, right?  Show me the science that says cloth or even surgical masks outdoors do anything.  Even indoors anything but n95 is a show, and even n95 are only marginally effective.  After 2 years of mask mandates worldwide with no effect at all on local transmission rates, and you still think masks do anything?

Some really brainwashed Thais who believe anything they're told on TV still argue on YT channels that the reason for Thailand's "low case count" is the widespread wearing of masks. Yet Thailand is now 24th in the world, with the 9th or 10th highest daily case count for several weeks running and is once again number one in ASEAN for the better part of a month now, having unseated Vietnam, which was number one and had up to 10 times as many daily cases as Thailand around 2-3 months ago.

Sweden's case count is significantly lower than Thailand's and that's the poster child country for not wearing masks practically at all throughout this crisis.

[Highlandman]

7 hours ago, Cabra said:

The Japanese and S.Koreans will probably elect to wear mask for some time to come. Not surprised, really. Wouldn't be surprised to see Thailand carry on this masking farce for some time to come as well.

Thailand will probably stick with mask wearing the longest. Japan used to be known as the land of masks pre-Covid, not so much because everyone wore them (they didn't) but because the percentage of the population that would wear them for whatever reason, was higher than anywhere else in the world. You could easily find 1 in 10 commuters on the subway in Tokyo wearing them, especially during the winter months when people had colds.

That has now probably shifted to Thailand, mainly because the Japanese government has ended outdoor mandates and there is an ever so slight rebelious spirit among some people in Japan, which doesn't seem to exist in Thailand. Despite Japan being a more conformist society in general, during Covid, no country has been as conformist as Thailand, which is puzzling because Thais don't follow road rules or any other rules really. Only Covid.

Let's see what they decide at Friday's CCSA meeting, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't budge on easing the outdoor mask mandate, not even a bit. They've been boasting they will end the practice at some outdoor venues/settings since December 21 (look up the Thai PBS article on the issue) and it has come up again and again especially recently, but the government refuses to budge.

I think they want to get some kind of award or something.

[LuckyStrike]

11 hours ago, WR2 said:

The stupidest, illogical, meaningless, ineffective and purely virtue signaling policy of all.  Yet still in effect in Thailand.  Because science, right?  Show me the science that says cloth or even surgical masks outdoors do anything.  Even indoors anything but n95 is a show, and even n95 are only marginally effective.  After 2 years of mask mandates worldwide with no effect at all on local transmission rates, and you still think masks do anything?

All true. I work in the nuclear industry. We wear real respirators. Never N95s or even half masks. N95s have a protection factor of 10. Divide the contaminate by 10 and that is what you are exposed to. That's with a fit test (quantitative or qualitative, google it). Without a fit test the PF is 1. Of course this is for occupational wear. The public does what it wants. Don't even get me started on KN95s.

from the US FDA:

"While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, it does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. "

Actual #SCIENCE