News Forum - UK Pensions in Thailand losing up to 20,160 baht a year

[stevedom]

In answer to the UK Governments statement on frozen UK. pensions.

The statement on Pensions by the UK Government must be shown up for what it is – that is an uncaring attitude towards its most needy & deserving citizens!

Only if there is a legal requirement would they be willing to pay the correct & still meagre amount of pension increase to those who choose to live in certain countries.

This should be a natural & humane priority to support those poorest in the wider community of British citizens not only done if compulsory!

Being a “longstanding policy” does not mean it’s correct! Hanging was also a”longstanding policy” but we have become more humane & compassionate, so it has changed!

If the NIC don’t earn entitlement to uprating of pensions payable abroad why do some pensioners abroad get this uprate?

The Government states that our NIC contributions do not pay for our pensions – yet if my investment had been in other areas I would be receiving many times more than I get from the Government now! Together with the total lack of clarity on these payments NOT being for a state pension or an annual increase NOT being available in certain countries the use of the word “benefit” is an insult to many who have never claimed from the Government because of great pride & conscience. These payments are pensioners right & due returns on working & paying NIC their whole lives!

The paragraph on the NIC payments being only applicable to one year at a time is contradictory because when you retire the whole pension is based on the total paid in over your entire working life and indeed if short can be made up by a further lump payment!

The UK pensions fund is very robust at present & used to invest in other areas to make money – around 30 billion – so 0.6 billion is a very small extra payment to quibble about, especially as it is the pensioners money!

Saying pensioners have a choice where they live is irrelevant & should not be any part of a reason NOT to receive their due annual increases.

Compassion seems to have no place in successive Governments policies when pensioners are concerned but the opposite where immigrants are helped abundantly – even after not paying taxes for many years like their British counterparts!

[Benroon]

  On 5/15/2022 at 4:46 PM, Faz said:

Remind me again, how much is the state pension, and what is the personal tax allowance?
Do you pay any tax on income below the PTA - no!

Agreed, you'll pay tax on any combined pension incomes above the PTA, but that does not alter the fact the state pension itself is not taxable, which is all I stated.

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Which is exactly why I said IF it takes you over the allowance in at least two messages.

[Benroon]

  On 5/15/2022 at 5:20 PM, Faz said:

That's why I employed professional solicitors @ £200 per hour when I sold my main UK residence 2 years ago after being resident in Thailand for 7 years at that time.
Everything was completed via email of documents, although my signature on the sale had to be certified by a Thai lawyer. According to my UK solicitor, CGT wasn't applicable as it was my main UK residence.

Perhaps some professionals are more 'professional' than others.

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Oh for sure - I would say upwards of 99% of accountants are clueless on expat tax affairs and that's being generous.

As SoiDog said this could be it's own thread, did the house stand empty in all that time ? I'm assuming so as according to the rules you must sell it within 3 years of leaving then providing no-one else lived in it and definitely no-one rented it, then you may escape CGT. The 3 years limit is probably to negate large rises in value going untaxed.  (oh but strangely if your house is 5000 sq metres plus you pay it regardless). From what you've said CGT was payable according to the rules now. But how they would check, no idea unless you confess on your tax return.

The payment you have to make btw is on the difference in value between 2015 and point of sale at your prevailing tax rate. Given property has gone berserk in the UK in that time that could be quite an unwelcome bill.

The onerous CGT laws were bought in in 2015 (primarily to stop russians buying up London) but they left the rules in place when they realised it scooped up the locals with yet another stealth tax. So many people living out here off of rentals etc will have no idea at all what's coming their way should they decide to sell.

[Benroon]

  On 5/15/2022 at 5:41 PM, Faz said:

It's taxable at source if you don't fill a form in, advising your pension provider not to withhold tax, then you have to complete a self assessment form and pay any due tax yourself. That's your choice!

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Which form is that ? Genuinely interested.

As far as I was aware if you have a tax code they are bound by law to tax you at source. The only way round that that I was aware of is declaring yourself a non resident, getting a '0' tax code from HMRC, THEN your pension provider can pay you gross (you then need to pay the tax in Thailand on the income)

[Benroon]

  On 5/16/2022 at 4:35 AM, Stevejm said:

The signatories to the petition don’t have to be based in Thailand. It was a general question referring to all overseas based pensioners. Anyway I would encourage all uk pensioners based in Thailand and potential future pensioners to sign the petition otherwise you really haven’t got much of a leg to stand on when you are complaining about the situation and you haven’t even made the minimal effort required to sign the petition online. I will be signing it. 

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lol that will never get off the ground will it, if you think about it I would say the majority of people legitimately complaining on the unfairness of it, are probably living in Thailand whilst still claiming the pension increases. 

They simply want it officially changed so they don't have to sleep with one eye open anymore so giving up their details on a government petition for HMRC to snoop at is the last thing they're going to do. 

[Benroon]

  On 5/15/2022 at 7:42 PM, Soidog said:

Is it possible that this 181 days for tax purposes is being confused? The attached picture is an extract from the full document (link attached)

https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence

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It's the same thing I think - the 183 days IN the UK that qualifies you as a resident is just a mirror of the 181 OUT of the UK that disqualifies you. Thats how I read that

[JamesR]

  On 5/17/2022 at 5:47 AM, Benroon said:

Which form is that ? Genuinely interested.

As far as I was aware if you have a tax code they are bound by law to tax you at source. The only way round that that I was aware of is declaring yourself a non resident, getting a '0' tax code from HMRC, THEN your pension provider can pay you gross (you then need to pay the tax in Thailand on the income)

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I am resident in the UK and have to fill in one of these every year.

https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-return-forms

[JamesR]

  On 5/17/2022 at 6:22 AM, Benroon said:

It's the same thing I think - the 183 days IN the UK that qualifies you as a resident is just a mirror of the 181 OUT of the UK that disqualifies you. Thats how I read that

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To me it is as clear as mud, a few days ago I had also looked at the government website shown above by @Soidog and I keep on going around in circles, it is indecipherable to me?

[JamesR]

  On 5/14/2022 at 3:57 AM, oldschooler said:

Successfully Registered to receive my UK State Pension recently with first payment 1 July. Are new pensions being paid on time now ? Read horror stories of people nine months overdue for first payment ?

Used same UK Address in play for UK Residence / Mail/ Document purposes;  with my Thai phone number which legally not linked to country of residence ?

My thinking was if they DID call me I would be available to answer any residence or other questions. I would just say I’m in Thailand due to Covid and that I’m still UK Resident. 
 

With this UK Address I would expect to receive any index increases. Having not contributed for 32 years it’s amazing I still qualify for 50% max. pension.

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I stated in a previous-post I would inform you if my first state pension payments due on the 17th May arrived on time.

I just checked my bank account and it is sitting there nicely.

Around £9k a year but it will be good as a backup as I can just transfer it to a UK savings account and leave it for emergencies which I hope I never have. 

Once I do 'retire' to Thailand in that I will be spending most of my time there, all the money will stay in the UK, properties too as it take just a few seconds to transfer money to my Thai bank account by Transfer Wise (now only called Wise) by iPhone. 

[Soidog]

  On 5/17/2022 at 6:22 AM, Benroon said:

https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence

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  On 5/17/2022 at 6:22 AM, Benroon said:

It's the same thing I think - the 183 days IN the UK that qualifies you as a resident is just a mirror of the 181 OUT of the UK that disqualifies you. Thats how I read that

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Ok that interesting. The part of the website that I think defines you non resident is as follows:

Overseas tests

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

• you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you have not been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
• you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working

Therefore you are automatically non-resident, if  “either” you spent fewer than 16 days in the U.K. for the 3 previous tax years. Or you are working overseas and spent fewer than 91 days in the U.K. and at least 61 of those days (91-30) were for reasons other than work.

So breaking this down it means someone who popped back to the U.K. for 10 days and not been back for 3 years. Or another example being someone who works overseas and for reasons of work came back working in the U.K. for 3 months and then left without spending any length of time socially or with family. In other words they just happens to be working but not really “residing” in the U.K.  

I therefore think someone who lives in Thailand and say goes back to England for 3 to 4 weeks once a year has no problems at all proving residence. Or even someone who lives in Thailand and on the second and third years goes back for 10 days each time (20 days total over 3 years) is classed as resident of previously residing full time in the U.K.  

I could be wrong of course but that’s how I read it???

[Soidog]

  On 5/17/2022 at 8:58 AM, JamesR said:

Once I do 'retire' to Thailand in that I will be spending most of my time there, all the money will stay in the UK, properties too as it take just a few seconds to transfer money to my Thai bank account by Transfer Wise (now only called Wise) by iPhone. 

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As I’m sure you know @JamesR, Wise is both an easy service and a good exchange rate. However, if you are transferring money each month and at some point looking to extend you visa on the basis of retirement. The fund transfer from Wise must show as “International Transfer”. Wise claim the by selecting the reason for transfer being  “Funds for long term stay in Thailand” it will show as this. I find this to work most of the time but not all of the time! I have however noted that if I move funds late on Friday, the money doesn’t arrive until mid-afternoon Monday, but it seems to always show correctly as International Transfer. 

[JamesR]

  On 5/17/2022 at 11:45 AM, Soidog said:

Ok that interesting. The part of the website that I think defines you non resident is as follows:

Overseas tests

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

• you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you have not been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
• you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working

Therefore you are automatically non-resident, if  “either” you spent fewer than 16 days in the U.K. for the 3 previous tax years. Or you are working overseas and spent fewer than 91 days in the U.K. and at least 61 of those days (91-30) were for reasons other than work.

So breaking this down it means someone who popped back to the U.K. for 10 days and not been back for 3 years. Or another example being someone who works overseas and for reasons of work came back working in the U.K. for 3 months and then left without spending any length of time socially or with family. In other words they just happens to be working but not really “residing” in the U.K.  

I therefore think someone who lives in Thailand and say goes back to England for 3 to 4 weeks once a year has no problems at all proving residence. Or even someone who lives in Thailand and on the second and third years goes back for 10 days each time (20 days total over 3 years) is classed as resident of previously residing full time in the U.K.  

I could be wrong of course but that’s how I read it???

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Yes I read it in a similar way, my plan once I go to 'live' in Thailand later this year is to go back to the UK for at least one month a year or maybe six monthly trips of three weeks at a time and that way as far as I read it will still be tax resident in the UK thus keeping my pension and also be resident when I eventually sell my rental properties after selecting one of them to be my prime home thus not paying CGT on that property.

[JamesR]

  On 5/17/2022 at 11:52 AM, Soidog said:

As I’m sure you know @JamesR, Wise is both an easy service and a good exchange rate. However, if you are transferring money each month and at some point looking to extend you visa on the basis of retirement. The fund transfer from Wise must show as “International Transfer”. Wise claim the by selecting the reason for transfer being  “Funds for long term stay in Thailand” it will show as this. I find this to work most of the time but not all of the time! I have however noted that if I move funds late on Friday, the money doesn’t arrive until mid-afternoon Monday, but it seems to always show correctly as International Transfer. 

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Thanks for the info I will copy and paste it into my notes.

I am still investigating the best way to do the 'retirement' visa extension, deposit 800k to a deposit account in Thailand, or one of the other visas you can buy for a few years or as you may be suggesting above, send money into my Thai account once a month as income.

How much is the monthly income we would have to show to get the one year extension?

Can it come from my personal bank acc in the UK or does it  have to look like it is coming from a pension company etc?

Re retiring I came across this link https://youtu.be/A4txl-bUTXc

These are the sort of people I avoid. 

[Benroon]

  On 5/17/2022 at 11:59 AM, JamesR said:

Yes I read it in a similar way, my plan once I go to 'live' in Thailand later this year is to go back to the UK for at least one month a year or maybe six monthly trips of three weeks at a time and that way as far as I read it will still be tax resident in the UK thus keeping my pension and also be resident when I eventually sell my rental properties after selecting one of them to be my prime home thus not paying CGT on that property.

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BUT - () you meant keep the pensions RISES right ? as regardless of where you live you will still get at least the basic if you qualify (frozen at the level it was at when you left). However that's definitely not even close to matching a tax free payment to Thailand from that pension (obv I'm talking private pension, a SIPP etc). ie a tiny tiny increase each year on your pension versus saving at least 20% on any payments from that pot to you out here. further ie a UK resident will get it taxed at source and a non resident won't. (again up to you if you declare it here)

I still haven't heard a convincing argument to NOT declare yourself a non resident of the UK. 

[Benroon]

  On 5/17/2022 at 11:45 AM, Soidog said:

Ok that interesting. The part of the website that I think defines you non resident is as follows:

Overseas tests

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

• you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you have not been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
• you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working

Therefore you are automatically non-resident, if  “either” you spent fewer than 16 days in the U.K. for the 3 previous tax years. Or you are working overseas and spent fewer than 91 days in the U.K. and at least 61 of those days (91-30) were for reasons other than work.

So breaking this down it means someone who popped back to the U.K. for 10 days and not been back for 3 years. Or another example being someone who works overseas and for reasons of work came back working in the U.K. for 3 months and then left without spending any length of time socially or with family. In other words they just happens to be working but not really “residing” in the U.K.  

I therefore think someone who lives in Thailand and say goes back to England for 3 to 4 weeks once a year has no problems at all proving residence. Or even someone who lives in Thailand and on the second and third years goes back for 10 days each time (20 days total over 3 years) is classed as resident of previously residing full time in the U.K.  

I could be wrong of course but that’s how I read it???

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I really don't think that's right - applying that to the entitlement to NHS services (which you can't have as  a non resident) all you would need to do is pop back for a holiday and hey presto free heart bypass. I'm pretty sure you can't do that (legally)

Generally speaking, a person deemed UK resident for fiscal purposes: in any tax year in which he lives in the UK for more than 182 days or if his visits to the UK exceed 91 days per tax year for 4 consecutive tax years.

and

Expats can become non resident in the UK by living for 183 days or more in another country as a tax resident there. This is known as the 183 day tax rule. Once you are considered a non resident for tax purposes in the UK, you can still visit the UK without losing your non-resident tax status.

 I think they keep it ambiguous to panic people into confessing unnecessarily

[JamesR]

  On 5/17/2022 at 1:51 PM, Benroon said:

BUT - () you meant keep the pensions RISES right ? as regardless of where you live you will still get at least the basic if you qualify (frozen at the level it was at when you left). However that's definitely not even close to matching a tax free payment to Thailand from that pension (obv I'm talking private pension, a SIPP etc). ie a tiny tiny increase each year on your pension versus saving at least 20% on any payments from that pot to you out here. further ie a UK resident will get it taxed at source and a non resident won't. (again up to you if you declare it here)

I still haven't heard a convincing argument to NOT declare yourself a non resident of the UK. 

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I think we have to take it case by case.

The only pension I get will be the state pension.

My other income is rent from properties in the UK.

No matter where I live I will have to pay tax to the UK at the end of the year on the total sum of rental income plus the state pension, each year I fill in an online form and then pay the tax at the end of the year.

Regarding the NHS, I have never been asked by a doctor or hospital if I have am non-resident, I don't know anybody who has.

I worked in the USA for a year, no one asked me anything when I got back.

[Soidog]

  On 5/17/2022 at 12:18 PM, JamesR said:

How much is the monthly income we would have to show to get the one year extension?

Can it come from my personal bank acc in the UK or does it  have to look like it is coming from a pension company etc?

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It’s 65,000 baht a month and it can come from your personal U.K. account, but it must show as an international transfer. The trouble with Wise is that they use Kaisakorn bank and when you send say £2,000 over, it happens in seconds but shows as an “Interbank transfer”. Hence immigration think you could be moving 65,000 in and out of two Thai banks and not importing or transferring it from overseas. 

[Soidog]

  On 5/17/2022 at 1:59 PM, Benroon said:

I really don't think that's right - applying that to the entitlement to NHS services (which you can't have as  a non resident) all you would need to do is pop back for a holiday and hey presto free heart bypass. I'm pretty sure you can't do that (legally)

Generally speaking, a person deemed UK resident for fiscal purposes: in any tax year in which he lives in the UK for more than 182 days or if his visits to the UK exceed 91 days per tax year for 4 consecutive tax years.

and

Expats can become non resident in the UK by living for 183 days or more in another country as a tax resident there. This is known as the 183 day tax rule. Once you are considered a non resident for tax purposes in the UK, you can still visit the UK without losing your non-resident tax status.

 I think they keep it ambiguous to panic people into confessing unnecessarily

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Where did those quotes come from. Do you have the links? 

[Thaidup]

  On 5/13/2022 at 10:38 AM, BigHewer said:

- With 55,000 British expats in Thailand, they’re going to have a hard time getting to 100,000 signatures.

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Just give the ex call and tell her you may have to come back, a guaranteed 50.000 extra signatures.

Or start a petition to limit politicians to the same pensions as the tax payer.

[Thaidup]

  On 5/17/2022 at 1:59 PM, Benroon said:

I really don't think that's right - applying that to the entitlement to NHS services (which you can't have as  a non resident) all you would need to do is pop back for a holiday and hey presto free heart bypass. I'm pretty sure you can't do that (legally)

Generally speaking, a person deemed UK resident for fiscal purposes: in any tax year in which he lives in the UK for more than 182 days or if his visits to the UK exceed 91 days per tax year for 4 consecutive tax years.

and

Expats can become non resident in the UK by living for 183 days or more in another country as a tax resident there. This is known as the 183 day tax rule. Once you are considered a non resident for tax purposes in the UK, you can still visit the UK without losing your non-resident tax status.

 I think they keep it ambiguous to panic people into confessing unnecessarily

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  On 5/17/2022 at 7:19 PM, Soidog said:

Where did those quotes come from. Do you have the links? 

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I think these laws are similar to Australia, Designed to stop immigrant residents from sponsoring family members to live in the country for a few years and then going back home and claiming a pension from the host country. Issue is that long term workers/contributors to the tax base have got caught up in the reforms.

[dj230]

Instead of losing money due to inflation, just put all your money in bitcoin and you can lose it all instead 

Edited May 17, 2022 by dj230

[Grumpish]

  On 5/17/2022 at 1:59 PM, Benroon said:

 I think they keep it ambiguous to panic people into confessing unnecessarily

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Like so many of the tax rules It is kept ambiguous so that the big accountancy practices that provide consultancy services to HMRC can also provide tax avoidance schemes for their wealthier clients. Conflict of interest? Of course not.

[Stevejm]

  On 5/17/2022 at 7:29 PM, Thaidup said:

Just give the ex call and tell her you may have to come back, a guaranteed 50.000 extra signatures.

Or start a petition to limit politicians to the same pensions as the tax payer.

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55k is more than half way to the target. Anyone who doesn’t bother to sign it is never allowed to complain about the issue ever IMHO

Edited May 18, 2022 by Stevejm

[Stevejm]

  On 5/16/2022 at 9:41 AM, stevedom said:

In answer to the UK Governments statement on frozen UK. pensions.

The statement on Pensions by the UK Government must be shown up for what it is – that is an uncaring attitude towards its most needy & deserving citizens!

Only if there is a legal requirement would they be willing to pay the correct & still meagre amount of pension increase to those who choose to live in certain countries.

This should be a natural & humane priority to support those poorest in the wider community of British citizens not only done if compulsory!

Being a “longstanding policy” does not mean it’s correct! Hanging was also a”longstanding policy” but we have become more humane & compassionate, so it has changed!

If the NIC don’t earn entitlement to uprating of pensions payable abroad why do some pensioners abroad get this uprate?

The Government states that our NIC contributions do not pay for our pensions – yet if my investment had been in other areas I would be receiving many times more than I get from the Government now! Together with the total lack of clarity on these payments NOT being for a state pension or an annual increase NOT being available in certain countries the use of the word “benefit” is an insult to many who have never claimed from the Government because of great pride & conscience. These payments are pensioners right & due returns on working & paying NIC their whole lives!

The paragraph on the NIC payments being only applicable to one year at a time is contradictory because when you retire the whole pension is based on the total paid in over your entire working life and indeed if short can be made up by a further lump payment!

The UK pensions fund is very robust at present & used to invest in other areas to make money – around 30 billion – so 0.6 billion is a very small extra payment to quibble about, especially as it is the pensioners money!

Saying pensioners have a choice where they live is irrelevant & should not be any part of a reason NOT to receive their due annual increases.

Compassion seems to have no place in successive Governments policies when pensioners are concerned but the opposite where immigrants are helped abundantly – even after not paying taxes for many years like their British counterparts!

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Most immigrants can’t get any government funds until they have been in the country for many years ( I think it is called the No recourse to public funds condition). There are some exceptions like asylum applications who the government would rather pay than allow them to work and support themselves whilst they wait years for their case to be heard!

PS I hope you signed the petition otherwise you can’t really complain can you? It might seem futile but there is more chance of getting something done if there is a parliamentary debate than if there is just a written answer which is just a statement of policy

Edited May 18, 2022 by Stevejm
Typo

[JamesR]

  On 5/17/2022 at 6:04 PM, Soidog said:

It’s 65,000 baht a month and it can come from your personal U.K. account, but it must show as an international transfer. The trouble with Wise is that they use Kaisakorn bank and when you send say £2,000 over, it happens in seconds but shows as an “Interbank transfer”. Hence immigration think you could be moving 65,000 in and out of two Thai banks and not importing or transferring it from overseas. 

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So which is the best company to use so we see an 'international transfer' marker?

I know of another company called XE.