News Forum - UK Pensions in Thailand losing up to 20,160 baht a year

[Benroon]

14 minutes ago, JamesR said:

I know about biometric systems, it is one thing to have a system and anther to be able to spend time and money chasing after pensioner in order to get two pounds six shillings and sixpence back. 

We have to be practical over these things.

Time and money ? It's automated.

But HMRC aren't too bothered about scooping up the small fry when going after the big fish. Infact the small fish will cave in earlier so easier money. 

At the end of the day it's how comfortable you are in assuming they won't come after you, especially when their bosses are only in employment when they can meet targets. But tell that to the thousands, might be millions now of people that have fallen foul to the completely unfair IR35 rules that thought HMRC would never go after them.

[JamesR]

36 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Eh ? It's income. Of course you do subject to tax free allowances. (which have just been frozen for 5 years so watch this space)

If combined with any other payment it takes you over the tax free threshold you definitely will. Of course if you have a life of just living on about 9k a year it won't trouble you.

I keep trying to tell him but he won't have it, of course it is subject to tax if we are over the roughly 12.5k tax free allowance. 

[Faz]

41 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Eh ? It's income. Of course you do subject to tax free allowances.

Remind me again, how much is the state pension, and what is the personal tax allowance?
Do you pay any tax on income below the PTA - no!

43 minutes ago, Benroon said:

If combined with any other payment it takes you over the tax free threshold you definitely will.

Agreed, you'll pay tax on any combined pension incomes above the PTA, but that does not alter the fact the state pension itself is not taxable, which is all I stated.

[Tim_Melb]

16 minutes ago, JamesR said:

So the airline passes on information to the government pension monitoring people?

They then have to to check every of the millions of passenger in and out of the country each year and then check if that person is a pensioner and then check the pensioners address and then check if that person is in the country or not now, how long they have been out, over the multiple times they might have been in and out,  where they went.

They would then have to investigate each individual they come across as we are innocent until proven guilty, lots of resources would have to be employed to prove intent etc.

At the end they might get a couple of thousand quid if the person has been out of the country ten years say.

That would keep them busy for a few thousand years.

If your system of recording where everyone is in and out of the country exists why isn't it used to catch international criminals?

Why because they do not keep such records on our whereabouts. 

I was investigated by the taxman a few years ago as they though I was under-declaring my income, why? Because I had an aeroplane register to my name on the CAA register.

They investigated for six months and found nothing as there was nothing to find, all clear and a waste of everyones time.

Do you think they would do that for the 12 million pensioners in the country and collect a few hundred quid each time, they don't have the resources and do not want to throw good money away and get a pittance in return. 

They don't need to investigate all pensioners only the ones that leave the country and do not return within a prescribed period. They already have all British citizens that leave the country identified (passport number) and the information is cross referenced (departures and arrivals) by the immigration department. So it's only people that leave and don't return that would be flagged on the system to be checked on the system and would be in time investigated. And it does happen even if it is very slow. I have a friend that was sent a letter of enquiry after having an extended holiday to visit family in Australia and not informing them before leaving. He was back home for more than a year before the letter arrived and it was no problem for him. Another unrelated example of the glacier like actions of the UK government was when my late mother passed away. The UK government were informed of her death within a week of her passing but took months to stop paying her pension to the bank in Australia where she was living. The Australian bank just returned all the payments except one which got into her account before it was frozen as part of the death and estate processing etc. The UK government were so slow in getting the situation sorted out that they didn't start requesting the return of that months pension until two years after the finalisation of her estate. And that was a total of three and a half years after she passed and a year after they had any right to claim anything from the estate under Australian law. 

So like I said they do record these thing's and they will catch up with people that are claiming a pension when residing overseas without telling them eventually. Further if you are claiming more than you are entitled to because you are overseas and you have been doing it for several years before they catch on, then they will start asking you for the return of those excess funds which could have accumulated into a large sum over several years. 

[Faz]

31 minutes ago, JamesR said:

Except it is taxable if you earn more than the allowance which is around 12.5k at the moment, people who earn less than that do not pay tax on the pension or on any other income. 

Only income above the PTA is taxable.
The state pension is less than the PTA and as such is not taxable. (By your own admission above)
People who earn less than £12,570 do not pay tax.
Do you know of anyone who receives a state pension exceeding that amount?

Each year I receive a tax coding notice from HMRC.
It states clearly the PTA, then my state pension, then the remaining tax-free allowance, which offsets tax I pay on a 2nd private pension. I get no tax-free allowance on a 3rd company pension.

[JamesR]

24 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Time and money ? It's automated.

But HMRC aren't too bothered about scooping up the small fry when going after the big fish. Infact the small fish will cave in earlier so easier money. 

At the end of the day it's how comfortable you are in assuming they won't come after you, especially when their bosses are only in employment when they can meet targets. But tell that to the thousands, might be millions now of people that have fallen foul to the completely unfair IR35 rules that thought HMRC would never go after them.

It is not all automated, some areas are. 

The did come after me in fact about ten years ago, they spent six months to nine months (I can't remember) investigating my tax affairs, they can not just say you are guilty, they have to investigate,  and it made me laugh as they were barking up the wrong tree, my accountant sorted them out.

But yes, it has been one of my points over my comments on this topic and I agree they will not waste any time and great expense chasing a state paid pensioner in order to get two pounds six shillings and sixpence out of them. 

[JamesR]

2 minutes ago, Faz said:

Only income above the PTA is taxable.
The state pension is less than the PTA and as such is not taxable. (By your own admission above)
People who earn less than £12,570 do not pay tax.
Do you know of anyone who receives a state pension exceeding that amount?

Each year I receive a tax coding notice from HMRC.
It states clearly the PTA, then my state pension, then the remaining tax-free allowance, which offsets tax I pay on a 2nd private pension. I get no tax-free allowance on a 3rd company pension.

We are going around in circles here.

I receive no notice from the HMRC, I have to fill in a self assessment form each year online, now I will have to include the state pension I have just started receiving, it will mean my tax will go up as I will have to pay tax on the state pension after my PTA has been taken into account.

You seem to be saying we put orange juice, tomato juice and lemon juice into a cup, we then mix it and only the tomato and orange juice will pour out if we tip the cup. 

[JamesR]

21 minutes ago, Faz said:

Remind me again, how much is the state pension, and what is the personal tax allowance?
Do you pay any tax on income below the PTA - no!

Agreed, you'll pay tax on any combined pension incomes above the PTA, but that does not alter the fact the state pension itself is not taxable, which is all I stated.

It is not taxable at source but it is taxable, semantics. 

[JamesR]

18 minutes ago, Tim_Melb said:

They don't need to investigate all pensioners only the ones that leave the country and do not return within a prescribed period. They already have all British citizens that leave the country identified (passport number) and the information is cross referenced (departures and arrivals) by the immigration department. So it's only people that leave and don't return that would be flagged on the system to be checked on the system and would be in time investigated. And it does happen even if it is very slow. I have a friend that was sent a letter of enquiry after having an extended holiday to visit family in Australia and not informing them before leaving. He was back home for more than a year before the letter arrived and it was no problem for him. Another unrelated example of the glacier like actions of the UK government was when my late mother passed away. The UK government were informed of her death within a week of her passing but took months to stop paying her pension to the bank in Australia where she was living. The Australian bank just returned all the payments except one which got into her account before it was frozen as part of the death and estate processing etc. The UK government were so slow in getting the situation sorted out that they didn't start requesting the return of that months pension until two years after the finalisation of her estate. And that was a total of three and a half years after she passed and a year after they had any right to claim anything from the estate under Australian law. 

So like I said they do record these thing's and they will catch up with people that are claiming a pension when residing overseas without telling them eventually. Further if you are claiming more than you are entitled to because you are overseas and you have been doing it for several years before they catch on, then they will start asking you for the return of those excess funds which could have accumulated into a large sum over several years. 

In that case it looks like we will be dead by the time the catch up to us.

[Faz]

1 hour ago, Benroon said:

To be honest, it's all out there. It's a horrible haze of ambiguity and now I would rather people find out for themselves (the hard way like I have) - ie you can trust forum 'experts' or pay professionals £200 an hour to tell you how it is.

I like to be helpful but so many times on this particular subject I'm told I've got it wrong (I haven't) that I just let people walk towards their future blissfully unaware.

That's why I employed professional solicitors @ £200 per hour when I sold my main UK residence 2 years ago after being resident in Thailand for 7 years at that time.
Everything was completed via email of documents, although my signature on the sale had to be certified by a Thai lawyer. According to my UK solicitor, CGT wasn't applicable as it was my main UK residence.

Perhaps some professionals are more 'professional' than others.

[Faz]

27 minutes ago, JamesR said:

It is not taxable at source but it is taxable, semantics. 

It's taxable at source if you don't fill a form in, advising your pension provider not to withhold tax, then you have to complete a self assessment form and pay any due tax yourself. That's your choice!

[Soidog]

10 hours ago, Benroon said:

Yes the 181 day period, no idea how that could be found out, but that's the law so you take your chances I guess and the penalties are quite severe.

Is it possible that this 181 days for tax purposes is being confused? The attached picture is an extract from the full document (link attached)

https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence

[Soidog]

11 hours ago, Benroon said:

I've had a thought SD, as you maintain a UK address, why not write to your local MP and get the official reason ? Let's see what the horses mouth comes up with.

Happy to do so but I did post a link from the official U.K. Gov website.  It explains the reason and the contradicts itself in the last paragraph. 

[Saltire]

11 hours ago, JamesR said:

It is not taxable at source but it is taxable, semantics. 

Agree 100%

If it was tax free it would not be included in annual income and would not need to be counted as part of  your PTA (which woulld be great).

I receive 2 private pensions which I requested to be paid untaxed for several years as, combined, they were under the PTA, so it was easier than asking for a tax refund.

When my UK pension kicked in this took me well over the PTA and I am now paying tax on the amount over the @12.5k.

 

[Stevejm]

On 5/13/2022 at 5:38 PM, BigHewer said:

Interesting stats on required response and debate by the UK government according to the article.

“Having reached over 10,000 signatures recently, it meant the UK government had to respond.”

- The response being that no increase is forthcoming.

“They can press the government for action and gather evidence. If this petition reaches 100,000 signatures, the Committee will consider it for a debate.”

- With 55,000 British expats in Thailand, they’re going to have a hard time getting to 100,000 signatures.

The signatories to the petition don’t have to be based in Thailand. It was a general question referring to all overseas based pensioners. Anyway I would encourage all uk pensioners based in Thailand and potential future pensioners to sign the petition otherwise you really haven’t got much of a leg to stand on when you are complaining about the situation and you haven’t even made the minimal effort required to sign the petition online. I will be signing it. 

[Stevejm]

On 5/13/2022 at 11:48 PM, Soidog said:

The oddity is that you do get the annual increase in some countries and not others. Such diverse places as the Philippines get it, and yet commonwealth countries like Canada you don’t. I have no idea where the original list of countries who benefit came from, but an expat living in Manila gets the increase (no money spent going to U.K. tax), while an expat in Bangkok doesn’t. Seems odd in these times of human rights and equality. 

I think it might be because UK has a reciprocal social security agreement with the Philippines. Some years ago I applied to make contributions for years that I missed when overseas so I wrote to the authorities advising where I had been for the missing years and they gave me credit for the years that I was in the Philippines. I believe the reciprocal agreement with the Philippines came about because of the large number of Philippines staff employed in the NHS

Edited May 16, 2022 by Stevejm

[Stevejm]

Anyone who hasn’t signed the petition please do so. I am posting the relevant information as a photo below because I have difficulty putting links in posts 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/601821?reveal_response=yes#response-threshold

Edited May 16, 2022 by Faz
link inserted.

[stuhan]

18 hours ago, Faz said:

I quoted the figures @stuhan used.
We don't all get the same weekly rate due to other factors being involved, such as qualifying years and contracted out periods.

The point being made was the Thaiger News got their sums wrong, stating 20,160 BHT = £4,800.

The u.k won't change it's policy on this topic so just accept it or go live in a country that they have an agreement with, i just live with it not crying over a small amount per year which is never going to become a large sum of money before i die based on what they increase the pensions by yearly. I have 2 state pensions one is from the uk 28yrs the other from the channel islands guernsey 16yrs which is part of great britain not the u.k and funny enough they do increase my pension every year. Keep having your pensions paid into a bank in your home country not a Thai bank.

[JamesR]

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

Happy to do so but I did post a link from the official U.K. Gov website.  It explains the reason and the contradicts itself in the last paragraph. 

Yes I looked at the same site a few days ago, as clear as mud.

But in any case I don't think they are interested in us small fish.

[Faz]

1 hour ago, stuhan said:

The u.k won't change it's policy on this topic so just accept it or go live in a country that they have an agreement with, i just live with it not crying over a small amount per year which is never going to become a large sum of money before i die based on what they increase the pensions by yearly.

Why are you telling me.
The Thaiger News team published the article, not the voluntary Admin/Moderator staff of the forum.

[JamesR]

2 hours ago, Saltire said:

Agree 100%

If it was tax free it would not be included in annual income and would not need to be counted as part of  your PTA (which woulld be great).

I receive 2 private pensions which I requested to be paid untaxed for several years as, combined, they were under the PTA, so it was easier than asking for a tax refund.

When my UK pension kicked in this took me well over the PTA and I am now paying tax on the amount over the @12.5k.

True, thanks for the info.

One thing which is totally tax free is renting a room out with the shared use of the kitchen etc in the house a person owns. 

You can charge up to £7500 a year and do not have to declare it whereas the state pension does have to be included in tax calculations, therefore is not tax free.

[JamesR]

5 minutes ago, Faz said:

Why are you telling me.
The Thaiger News team published the article, not the voluntary Admin/Moderator staff of the forum.

It's a taxing time, or is it? 

[BigHewer]

2 hours ago, Stevejm said:

The signatories to the petition don’t have to be based in Thailand. It was a general question referring to all overseas based pensioners. Anyway I would encourage all uk pensioners based in Thailand and potential future pensioners to sign the petition otherwise you really haven’t got much of a leg to stand on when you are complaining about the situation and you haven’t even made the minimal effort required to sign the petition online. I will be signing it. 

Exactly right, and hopefully pensioners based elsewhere will be willing to help. 

[lavrentyb]

On 5/13/2022 at 4:24 PM, JamesR said:

Why do they tell the Brit government they are living in Thailand?

Once you have the pension and it is paid into you British bank account there are no other on going checks regarding where you live.

 

[lavrentyb]

Pensioners over75 cannot enter Thailand..  They cannot get the insurance ..AXA  has a monopoly ..i wonder who gets the brown envelope? The A.B.I has been informed of this insurance scam