News Forum - UK Pensions in Thailand losing up to 20,160 baht a year

[Benroon]

17 hours ago, Faz said:

There is no CGT to pay if it was your main residence.
https://www.gov.uk/tax-sell-home#:~:text=You do not pay Capital,time you've owned it

Non-residents only pay tax on their UK income - they do not pay UK tax on their foreign income.

Residents normally pay UK tax on all their income, whether it’s from the UK or abroad. But there are special rules for UK residents whose permanent home (‘domicile’) is abroad.
https://www.gov.uk/tax-foreign-income/residence#:~:text=Non-residents only pay tax,'domicile') is abroad.

If it's your main residence at the time of sale correct - but obviously if you're living abroad the house abroad is your main residence (back to the 181 day limit outside the UK to determine that) and you will pay CGT at your prevailing income tax rate on any UK house sale. Whether it was your main residence in the past is immaterial. It's the current tax year they will look at.

[Benroon]

On 5/14/2022 at 4:09 AM, Soidog said:

I often read (daily I mean) utterly baffling and illogical policies and statements by the Thai government. This is in stark contrast to what I hear coming out of countries like the U.K.  Although I often disagree with what The U.K. governments says, does and doesn’t do, I can at least see the logic and follow their reasoning, while not always liking or agreeing. On this topic, the statements and policy of the U.K. government could have come straight out of Government House in Bangkok. Utterly baffling, illogical, discriminatory and down right unfair. 
 

My understanding is such cases have even gone to court and the U.K. government has won the case. Somewhere, there must be a document which explains how certain countries (Argentina I believe is even one) get the increase. While many others; including  those where the Queen is the official Head of State, don’t!!  It is Gobsmackingly  illogical.    

I've had a thought SD, as you maintain a UK address, why not write to your local MP and get the official reason ? Let's see what the horses mouth comes up with.

[Benroon]

On 5/14/2022 at 3:49 AM, Soidog said:

This is a big topic and worthy of its own thread I think.
 

I’m not sure of the 181 day limit as I frequently was out of the country for longer on business and leisure over the years and never lost any entitlement to the NHS, or voting rights. I was never asked if I spent such time out of the country, so how would they ever know? Equally, I know many people in Thailand who have used family addresses for more than 20 years and have annual pension increases. While I don’t think the U.K. government will change the rules, I’m sure they spend little to no time chasing pensioners who don’t declare being out of the country for more than 181 days. 

As for the NHS I’m afraid I have to totally disagree with your statement about it being a basket case. The issue is the demand and waiting list for the service. Once you are in the system then it is world class service.
 

The NHS needs to redefine itself and focus on essential treatments. Less “wellness” bollocks and issues such as Gender reassignment and supply of gluten free products to people who can afford to buy their own. A limit on body BMI unless clearly linked to illness should also be a qualifying factor in my book! All of that would save money and time and allow more essential services to be performed. I saw an article the other day of a woman who had taken her kid to A&E because she couldn’t remove a sticking plaster as the kid was crying. Charge idiots like that and save more money and time. As you may guess, I have strong feelings and opinions about what I consider to be a wonderful service we Brits should be rightly proud of

Yes for sure it could probably get it's own thread, infact a 'taxation corner' would be massively useful if it attracted maybe ex professionals who could steer people away from bar stool experts.

Yes the 181 day period, no idea how that could be found out, but that's the law so you take your chances I guess and the penalties are quite severe. I remember in the 'other forum' someone was going on about how they had got all the increases over the years without setting a foot in the UK, that was until based on their input someone grassed them up. I'm sure there must be mechanisms to check but yes I have no idea what they are. Perhaps just random samples which is how they catch most small time tax dodgers.

Re NHS for sure we disagree, I've been through the sheer misery of A&E too many times, however just to clarify I wasn't denigrating the staff for one second, for sure once you're in it's ok, but that's the point, it's getting in, but the whole structure is knackered and hopelessly outdated imo and MP's are too scared to touch it. Waiting 6 months after a potentially deadly cancer diagnosis is not my idea of 'world class' - (also currently 6.1million people waiting for operations - many due to Covid for sure) however yes it's an emotive subject based largely on personal experience I guess.

[palooka]

On 5/14/2022 at 10:22 AM, BigHewer said:

Some interesting stats here. Australia #1 (not indexed); Spain #2 (indexed). Thailand has 41,000 according to this list.

https://www.internationalinvestment.net/news/4015672/australia-spain-us-remain-destinations-uk-expats-research

Only 2 (two!) British retirees in Mongolia . I wonder if they know each other.

Termination of the Social Security Agreement with the UK - Information for Prospective Migrants | Department of Social Services, Australian Government (dss.gov.au)

 

Why has Australia terminated the agreement?

Australia has terminated the Agreement because the UK Government refuses to change its policy of not indexing pensions in Australia, even though it does index pensions paid in some countries with which it has Agreements.

The Australian Government has made considerable efforts over the last decade to get the UK to re-negotiate the Agreement to address the indexation problem but the UK has refused all our efforts.

www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/international/international-social-security-agreements/termination-of-the-social-security-agreement-with-the-united-kingdom-uk-1-march-2001/termination-of-the-social-security-agreement-with-the-uk-information-for-prospective-migrants

[Marble-eye]

The "British State Pensioners World Wide" have their own Facebook page. Well worth joining for updated info etc. 

https://m.facebook.com/pensionjustice/?locale2=th_TH

Edited May 15, 2022 by Faz
added link

[Faz]

1 hour ago, Benroon said:

If it's your main residence at the time of sale correct - but obviously if you're living abroad the house abroad is your main residence (back to the 181 day limit outside the UK to determine that) and you will pay CGT at your prevailing income tax rate on any UK house sale.

Can you provide a link confirming that information.

[Faz]

2 hours ago, Benroon said:

Yep that's what makes it annoying - ok if you want to cut me off fine but that should work both ways ie I don't have to pay the govt. Why should I pay taxes when I cannot possibly benefit from them and anything I do get is frozen! 

You don't pay tax on your state pension, never will.

[Faz]

3 hours ago, JamesR said:

Even £480 a year is too high, for example last year the pensions was £179.60 a week, it went up by 3.1% to £185.15 a rise of £288.6 a year so for people to lose out significantly they woulds have to be out of the country for around twenty years, most people do not live past twenty years when retiring at 66 as in the UK.

I quoted the figures @stuhan used.
We don't all get the same weekly rate due to other factors being involved, such as qualifying years and contracted out periods.

The point being made was the Thaiger News got their sums wrong, stating 20,160 BHT = £4,800.

[JamesR]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

You don't pay tax on your state pension, never will.

Well you do if you income is above the annual tax free allowance which is about £12.5k at the moment in the UK.

You pension is lumped together with the other income from the UK and the whole amount minus your allowance is taxable.

But pension is not taxed at source but is taxable at the end of the financial year subject to the above rules. 

[JamesR]

2 hours ago, Faz said:

Can you provide a link confirming that information.

Will get back to you.

[EdwardV]

3 hours ago, Benroon said:

I believe it's even worse for americans, I was told once you have to pay a leaving fee, there is no mechanism to declare yourself non resident (like brits) thus save tax and you pay the american government tax on ANY money earnt anywhere in the world for life with no way to escape the burden.

I’ve never heard of a leaving fee. There might be, just never heard of it. While the US government does want your taxes on income, they don’t tax you twice. You deduct the foreign income that you pay foreign tax on from your total income before your tax is calculated. Of course if you don’t have foreign income, no problem. Keeping in mind your social security payment isn’t effected by living out of the country, and you can come back at anytime as your other benefits never stop. That said, American taxes on expats is a paperwork nightmare. Best to not work in retirement or at least pretend you don’t. 

[Faz]

50 minutes ago, JamesR said:

Well you do if you income is above the annual tax free allowance which is about £12.5k at the moment in the UK.

The state pension is below the personal tax allowance, so will never be taxed.
You're only taxed on income above the PTA, which means you're not taxed on any state pension.

 

53 minutes ago, JamesR said:

But pension is not taxed at source but is taxable at the end of the financial year subject to the above rules. 

It's taxed at source.
Any private/company pension is paid NETT after tax is deducted.

[Grumpish]

2 hours ago, Faz said:

You don't pay tax on your state pension, never will.

You do - the way UK income tax is assessed, my state pension uses up a large chunk of my personal tax allowance, what is left is set against one of my occupational pensions, and everything else is taxed at basic rate. In theory, if the state pension ever exceeded the personal tax allowance (pigs might fly) then it would be taxed. What you don't pay on any pension income is National Insurance. 

[Tim_Melb]

On 5/14/2022 at 12:24 AM, JamesR said:

Why do they tell the Brit government they are living in Thailand?

Once you have the pension and it is paid into you British bank account there are no other on going checks regarding where you live.

Because they have to. When you leave Britain as with every other country you fill out a departure card for the reason that the government wants a record of coming and going for their bookkeeping and in time that information is filed back through the departments and they then start asking questions. Getting caught out lying to the department about pension can get your pension stopped until the problems are sorted and money owed is repayed. Lying to the government when you are relying on money from them to live on is a very bad idea. 

[Faz]

24 minutes ago, Grumpish said:

You do - the way UK income tax is assessed, my state pension uses up a large chunk of my personal tax allowance, what is left is set against one of my occupational pensions, and everything else is taxed at basic rate. In theory, if the state pension ever exceeded the personal tax allowance (pigs might fly) then it would be taxed. What you don't pay on any pension income is National Insurance. 

The PTA is £12,570 per annum. (£241.73 per week).
Only income above this level is taxable.
Unless your State pension is £241.73 a week, you are not taxed on it.

[JamesR]

34 minutes ago, Tim_Melb said:

Because they have to. When you leave Britain as with every other country you fill out a departure card for the reason that the government wants a record of coming and going for their bookkeeping and in time that information is filed back through the departments and they then start asking questions. Getting caught out lying to the department about pension can get your pension stopped until the problems are sorted and money owed is repayed. Lying to the government when you are relying on money from them to live on is a very bad idea. 

There is no departure card from the UK, there is no outgoing immigration check from the UK, they only look at your picture in your passport when you arrive back in the UK, no dates checked.

[JamesR]

10 minutes ago, Faz said:

The PTA is £12,570 per annum. (£241.73 per week).
Only income above this level is taxable.
Unless your State pension is £241.73 a week, you are not taxed on it.

Semantics, if you receive money from rent it is not taxed at source, at the end of the year you do a self assessment and show you have have been paid a state  pension, the income from the rent and all the other income is added together and you do pay tax on the lot including the state pension. 

[Tim_Melb]

11 minutes ago, JamesR said:

There is no departure card from the UK, there is no outgoing immigration check from the UK, they only look at your picture in your passport when you arrive back in the UK, no dates checked.

This shows how long it's been since I was last in the UK. However the information is still recorded and passed on to the government by the airlines. Passenger information with passport number etc is passed on to the government and is still passed on to the departments that may be effected. In time it will catch up to you. Admittedly they are glacier like with the speed of these processes but they do get there eventually. 

[Faz]

27 minutes ago, JamesR said:

Semantics, if you receive money from rent it is not taxed at source, at the end of the year you do a self assessment and show you have have been paid a state  pension, the income from the rent and all the other income is added together and you do pay tax on the lot including the state pension. 

Who mentioned income from rent?
I stated the government state pension is not taxable, no semantics about it.

[Benroon]

5 hours ago, Faz said:

You don't pay tax on your state pension, never will.

Eh ? It's income. Of course you do subject to tax free allowances. (which have just been frozen for 5 years so watch this space)

If combined with any other payment it takes you over the tax free threshold you definitely will. Of course if you have a life of just living on about 9k a year it won't trouble you.

[Benroon]

1 hour ago, JamesR said:

There is no departure card from the UK, there is no outgoing immigration check from the UK, they only look at your picture in your passport when you arrive back in the UK, no dates checked.

You're behind the times my friend - the biometric passports tell them everything you're assuming they can't know. So next time you get a choice of the biometric scan gates and the manual gates, you'll know what to do.

[Benroon]

5 hours ago, Faz said:

Can you provide a link confirming that information.

To be honest, it's all out there. It's a horrible haze of ambiguity and now I would rather people find out for themselves (the hard way like I have) - ie you can trust forum 'experts' or pay professionals £200 an hour to tell you how it is.

I like to be helpful but so many times on this particular subject I'm told I've got it wrong (I haven't) that I just let people walk towards their future blissfully unaware.

[JamesR]

1 hour ago, Tim_Melb said:

This shows how long it's been since I was last in the UK. However the information is still recorded and passed on to the government by the airlines. Passenger information with passport number etc is passed on to the government and is still passed on to the departments that may be effected. In time it will catch up to you. Admittedly they are glacier like with the speed of these processes but they do get there eventually. 

So the airline passes on information to the government pension monitoring people?

They then have to to check every of the millions of passenger in and out of the country each year and then check if that person is a pensioner and then check the pensioners address and then check if that person is in the country or not now, how long they have been out, over the multiple times they might have been in and out,  where they went.

They would then have to investigate each individual they come across as we are innocent until proven guilty, lots of resources would have to be employed to prove intent etc.

At the end they might get a couple of thousand quid if the person has been out of the country ten years say.

That would keep them busy for a few thousand years.

If your system of recording where everyone is in and out of the country exists why isn't it used to catch international criminals?

Why because they do not keep such records on our whereabouts. 

I was investigated by the taxman a few years ago as they though I was under-declaring my income, why? Because I had an aeroplane register to my name on the CAA register.

They investigated for six months and found nothing as there was nothing to find, all clear and a waste of everyones time.

Do you think they would do that for the 12 million pensioners in the country and collect a few hundred quid each time, they don't have the resources and do not want to throw good money away and get a pittance in return. 

[JamesR]

12 minutes ago, Benroon said:

You're behind the times my friend - the biometric passports tell them everything you're assuming they can't know. So next time you get a choice of the biometric scan gates and the manual gates, you'll know what to do.

I know about biometric systems, it is one thing to have a system and anther to be able to spend time and money chasing after pensioner in order to get two pounds six shillings and sixpence back. 

We have to be practical over these things.

[JamesR]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

Who mentioned income from rent?
I stated the government state pension is not taxable, no semantics about it.

Except it is taxable if you earn more than the allowance which is around 12.5k at the moment, people who earn less than that do not pay tax on the pension or on any other income. 

What about private pensions do you think we do not have to pay tax on those too if we are over the tax threshold?

I am about to buy a couple of properties to rent out, when I fill in my tax form at the end of the year I will not mention my state pension as I will tell them you told me I do not have to pay tax on it and so my overall tax payment will be less.

Cheers.