News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[oldschooler]

41 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Good word. And might explain why some male civilians are being found shot dead.

/cue the war crime wailers… 

Since the entire invasion IS a clear giant war crime / atrocity

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Yes. Seems he believes civilians don’t have the right to take up arms to fight the cruel invader ….. and actually deserve to be shot for fighting back to defend homes, family, land. Shame on them for “ prolonging” the war& upsetting Putin. Just rollover and accept that Putin is justified !

Don’t do that. Twisting my words to justify a response is the mainstay of more than one mental midget in this discussion. You may be many things but you are not intellectually challenged nor short of a logical response. Just don’t go down that road.

[birdman]

11 hours ago, billywillyjones said:

Nothing to do with lef ot right the issue is about the preservation of the planet.  Nato stooges are as quick to grab their guns as the Russians they criticize.  This is not child 's play.  We are entering territory where only fools go.  Russian has Nuclear capability.  Have you every heard of the Cuban missile crisis?  I don't think so.

NATO has been too late and too nice!

They should have reacted like this when Putin invaded Crimea,i am sure this would not have

happened.The West weak response to that has given Putin the idea that somehow the West

was scared of him.Don't wake the Russian bear!

He made a big mistake that will hunt the Russian people for generations to come.

[oldschooler]

10 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Besides the fact Putin has shown no inclination that he is either crazy or suicidal, both of which would be needed to release nuclear weapons. To what end would he use them? What possible advantage would Russia get out of the use of nuclear weapons? Drop them on a NATO country? That's committing suicide. Drop them on Ukraine? What does that get you? The Ukrainian forces are dispersed, you wouldn't kill enough of them to change the course of the war. Never mind the resulting NATO forward deployment and massive conventional strike. Drop one in a remote area, say out at sea? Ok, an escalation and warning to back off and let Russia finish the job? Besides the fact at this point it doesn't appear Russia is capable of finishing the job even if NATO backed off. There is no guarantee the eastern nations would follow suit and instead keep supplying Ukraine with weapons on their own. After all, they know what happens after Ukraine. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just there isn't much logic behind the use. 

Keeping in mind even if Putin ordered the use, doesn't mean it happens. The Russian generals know if they follow through, there is a good chance they are committing suicide at worse, or end up in front of a war crimes tribunal at best. The better option at that point is Putin coming down with a 9mm headache. 

Quite. Everything SAID by Tyrants can be safely disregarded or reversed. All Phony Threats, Bluster, Bluff, intended to frighten & manipulate smaller foes. Always backfires in their faces !
 

Yet they can’t help but continue with the constant stream of lies or silence. Just their nature

Badly Exposed / Reversed by your above Logic and Russia replacing evil threats to “ destroy” Sweden, by now saying “ it’s a trivial matter” if they join NATO.

Ya da, Ya da. Save your breath Ivan. Nobody’s reacting except with contempt, to believe opposite or rushing to join NATO !

[oldschooler]

4 minutes ago, birdman said:

NATO has been too late and too nice!

They should have reacted like this when Putin invaded Crimea,i am sure this would not have

happened.The West weak response to that has given Putin the idea that somehow the West

was scared of him.Don't wake the Russian bear!

He made a big mistake that will hunt the Russian people for generations to come.

Ukraine not ready in 2014. Proven by inability to force fairly weak Russian forces back out of Donbass in 2014. 

NATO suckered Putin into present invasion to reduce Russian Menace. Ukraine was always going to get Attacked / Wrecked by Russia. 

Now Ukraine is a trained functional equipped NATO-level Army. Ukraine supported by West will now recover every inch of their land. 

[Fanta]

46 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

I agree, I don’t think they can help themselves. It’s just second nature for them

The Russians must be lulling them into a false sense of security by providing food, medical care, evacuation and the necessities of life. Why they don’t just string up the barbed wire and leave them to eat the grass or worse is beyond me. 
EDIT: the last sentence contains a hefty dose of sarcasm. 

[oldschooler]

25 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Don’t do that. Twisting my words to justify a response is the mainstay of more than one mental midget in this discussion. You may be many things but you are not intellectually challenged nor short of a logical response. Just don’t go down that road.

Then don’t leave yourself open by that unpleasant vague statement re. murdered civilians. Normally you expand and make clear your position.

No twisting involved just following & expanding in the direction you pointed. 

Was actually puzzled & concerned when you left that potential nasty implication hanging …

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The Russians must be lulling them into a false sense of security by providing food, medical care, evacuation and the necessities of life. Why they don’t just string up the barbed wire and leave them to eat the grass or worse is beyond me. 

Because then that North Korean rock bottom level of barbarity  ( Clear Genocide ?) would truly condemn Russia permanently to isolated pariah status ……there are certain limits that even Putin cannot cross ( where Stalin wouldn’t have hesitated).

[Fanta]

1 minute ago, oldschooler said:

Then don’t leave yourself open by that unpleasant vague statement re. murdered civilians. Normally you expand and make clear your position.

No twisting involved just following & expanding in the direction you pointed. 

Was actually puzzled & concerned when you left that potential nasty implication hanging …

My apologies for not being clear and I should never have gone near such a sensitive issue as war crimes. Militia, guerrillas, partisans, saboteurs, spies - call them what you like. My point is that they are active and that the common assumption  that every male civilian death is the death of an innocent non-combatant and therefore a war crime is either naive or disingenuous.

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Because then that North Korean rock bottom level of barbarity  ( Clear Genocide ?) would truly condemn Russia permanently to isolated pariah status ……there are certain limits that even Putin cannot cross ( where Stalin wouldn’t have hesitated).

My previous reply, since edited, was sarcastic.

Russia is providing the necessities of life to Mariupol survivors and undoubtedly cleaning house while they are at it. Many a pro-Russian sympathizer would be keen to earn brownie points by informing on their next door neighbor for anti Russian sentiment or worse and action by the Russians must be taken. I doubt that widespread brutality is being committed against the general population. If Russia intends to absorb this city into Russia it is a self defeating exercise.

[EdwardV]

28 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The Russians must be lulling them into a false sense of security by providing food, medical care, evacuation and the necessities of life.

Nothing says brotherly love and caring like the stationing of Chechen troops in your town:

The cousin of Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov was deployed to Mariupol as a part of Russia’s push to end the months-long resistance holed up in the Azovstal steel plant, the U.K.’s defense ministry said Wednesday.

"In attempting to overcome Ukrainian resistance, Russia has made significant use of axillary personnel. This includes a deployment of Chechen forces, likely consisting of several thousand fighters primarily concentrated in the Mariupol and Luhansk sectors," 

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-ukraine-war-cousin-chechen-172558487.html
 

Nothing good can come from this. 

[IneptoCracy]

I have noticed that neither side is talking about the booby trapped toys, AK rifle magazines etc that are left behind, after the troops from either side have left the area?

How do I know this, because I have Thai friends who are fighting over there. How do I know about the booby trapped magazines, I will tell you how they work.

They  contain explosive material and live rounds. So when a soldier running low on ammo, picks up the magazine to use the remaining bullets, x amount of rounds go bang, then the contact points in the magazine meet, setting off an explosion of shards of metal, either killing or maiming the person who tried to use the magazine. That is a war crime of note.

The Golan Heights in Israel are littered with mines and booby trapped gold Rolex watches, kids toys..lots of teddy bears, medals etc. How do I know this, because I have been there and seen them.

[oldschooler]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

My previous reply, since edited, was sarcastic.

Russia is providing the necessities of life to Mariupol survivors and undoubtedly cleaning house while they are at it. Many a pro-Russian sympathizer would be keen to earn brownie points by informing on their next door neighbor for anti Russian sentiment or worse and action by the Russians must be taken. I doubt that widespread brutality is being committed against the general population. If Russia intends to absorb this city into Russia it is a self defeating exercise.

Yes realized the undoubted clear sarcasm but it raised the question of Russias limits to its criminal brutality which I thought worth discussing .

Should have acknowledged the sarcasm though.My direct style might need improving …..

For example, we know from residents reports that Russia has been rounding up capable males aged 16-60 in occupied Donbass for “press gang” Army service. That is desperate “ brutality” & inconsistent with absorption into Russia. 

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Nothing says brotherly love and caring like the stationing of Chechen troops in your town

The Chechens have experience on living in the rubble. I agree that nothing good can come of this. 

[oldschooler]

5 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Nothing says brotherly love and caring like the stationing of Chechen troops in your town:

The cousin of Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov was deployed to Mariupol as a part of Russia’s push to end the months-long resistance holed up in the Azovstal steel plant, the U.K.’s defense ministry said Wednesday.

"In attempting to overcome Ukrainian resistance, Russia has made significant use of axillary personnel. This includes a deployment of Chechen forces, likely consisting of several thousand fighters primarily concentrated in the Mariupol and Luhansk sectors," 

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-ukraine-war-cousin-chechen-172558487.html
 

Nothing good can come from this. 

Plus press ganging all capable local males aged 16-60 …..they’re all hiding in basements while the women operate the businesses even car repair ! Wrecking social cohesion & Chechen Terror Troops is hardly conducive to post- war “ absorption “.

[oldschooler]

30 minutes ago, Fanta said:

My apologies for not being clear and I should never have gone near such a sensitive issue as war crimes. Militia, guerrillas, partisans, saboteurs, spies - call them what you like. My point is that they are active and that the common assumption  that every male civilian death is the death of an innocent non-combatant and therefore a war crime is either naive or disingenuous.

Agreed. That makes clear your subject thoughts in rational manner.

Although, self-defense aside, the invader execution of such (justified) categories, when coming from the invaded population, constitutes war crime atrocities.  

[oldschooler]

10 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The Chechens have experience on living in the rubble. I agree that nothing good can come of this. 

These of course are turncoat traitor Chechens m, living “high on the hog” in Chechnya, on Putins payroll, making a business from state- sponsored murder-torture -rape of their own people, moving willingly & joyfully no doubt to abusing Ukrainians.

Many will be outright psychopathic gunmen enjoying their evil trade.  

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

These of course are turncoat traitor Chechens m, living “high on the hog” in Chechnya, on Putins payroll, making a business from state- sponsored murder-torture -rape of their own people, moving willingly & joyfully no doubt to abusing Ukrainians.

Many will be outright psychopathic gunmen enjoying their evil trade.  

Not real big on them eh? I went off them after that cinema hostage thing in Moscow. In my book there are limits to expressing resistance. 

[vlad]

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

held accountable? as in actually punished? You are so precious. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_war_crimes

This is the first Murderer on trial. No one from Russia helped him and he was left on his own.

 

[vlad]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

imo, Ukraine set the mines before the war started to slow or stop a Russian naval invasion. You believe Russia did it AFTER they already controlled the Azov Sea and they also risked enemy fire to lay some close to shore at Odessa. For what?  Even the TAT of Ukraine wouldn’t be bold enough to add in Black Sea cruises to their estimated tourism totals. If you are not Russian authorized to be in the Black Sea you’ll be swimming home.
Forget the mines, how are any transport ships even supposed to get through a Russian sea blockade to  access the ports let alone ship goods out ?
imo, believing that Ukraine didn’t deploy the sea mines is the same as saying they don’t use land mines - great for the “nice guys don’t use mines” story that any Princess Di fan holds dear to their heart but not based in the realities of wartime defense. I’d be sowing those things like Ukrainian corn seeds if it was my port. 

Russia bad, Ukraine good - we can agree on that. 

Who are the good guys and the bad guys Haw-Haw one side fights to survive the other flattens city's kills, civilians, and is now being proved to have committed war crimes? who side are you on the good guys or the baddies. 

[Fester]

On 5/18/2022 at 12:17 PM, Fanta said:

That’s a bummer if Ukraine doesn’t agree to let the territories go (if only for a short while). Ukraine could do with a breather to build their military up so they can later go back to kick the Kremlin Krew all the way back to Moscow. 

If only for a short while? 

[Fester]

8 hours ago, Fanta said:

Why would Russia lay the mines if Ukraine had no ships? This is the same Ukrainian Navy that scuttled their flagship frigate in port. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-navy-frigate-sunk-mykolaiv-b2029108.html

In other news: 
“Russia on Wednesday said it was using a new generation of powerful lasers in Ukraine to burn up drones, deploying some of Moscow's secret weapons to counter a flood of Western arms.”

Zelenskky, as usual didn’t have a good thing to say about the Russians and called the lasers wonder weapons.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-touts-new-generation-blinding-laser-weapons-2022-05-18/

Navies don't use frigates to lay mines, Haw Haw. 

[Fanta]

34 minutes ago, Fester said:

Navies don't use frigates to lay mines, Haw Haw. 

Really, Captain Binghamton? 

“Mines may be placed by aircraft, ships, submarines, or individual swimmers and boatmen.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine 

[Fester]

16 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Really, Captain Binghamton? 

“Mines may be placed by aircraft, ships, submarines, or individual swimmers and boatmen.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine 

Yes, really. Frigates are not employed for minelaying - waste of resource. In the case of surface ships, this task is generally carried out by dedicated  minelayers or other smaller converted types of vessel.

It is more likely that any mines drifting off southern Ukraine have been set by Russia because (1) they have the capability (especially from Kilo class subs) and (2) because they are the dominant navy in the area and can pretty much do what they want. Of course, Russian vessels of any size coming too close to the coast near Snake Island or Odessa run the risk of destruction by anti-ship missiles from shore, as we have already seen.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/03/opinion-is-there-a-serious-sea-mine-threat-in-the-black-sea/

 

 

[IneptoCracy]

Fanta you are correct and even dolphins can be trained to lay mines.

https://www.forces.net/news/dolphins-defence-how-military-uses-marine-mammals