News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[EdwardV]

10 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

This is why I should avoid these topics. Because I instantly think of Iraq, and the invasion that led to a stable country becoming a haven for Islamic extremists and the hanging of bloke that kept all of that away. And now the American tax payer is dumping billions into a new war, FFS they just got out of Aghanastan, And now they have to be funding another war. Howabout letting the American people decide on the funding, have a referendum, IE spend the money in Ukraine or in America?

I don't really have a problem with that since it's mostly true.

However, the American people are behind supporting Ukraine by a large percentage. America doesn't do issue driven national referendums, they do elections instead. Isn't the US actually spending the money in Ukraine? 

Many say Biden not tough enough on Russia: AP-NORC poll | AP News

[Thaidup]

2 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

I don't really have a problem with that since it's mostly true.

However, the American people are behind supporting Ukraine by a large percentage. America doesn't do issue driven national referendums, they do elections instead. Isn't the US actually spending the money in Ukraine? 

Many say Biden not tough enough on Russia: AP-NORC poll | AP News

Yes, I understand your point. But as is in Australia(my home) Our countries spend more on lost causes than we do on our own poor and impoverished.

[Guphz]

On 4/17/2022 at 4:03 PM, EdwardV said:

What makes you think Putin would want peace now? He’s getting ready to attack again, one last big push to try and break open the stalemate.

What stalemate? Russia has just performed a massive retreat from most of Ukraine. And in other areas, they have been beaten back. And every day that passes by, Ukraine gets more and better weapons. Meanwhile, Russian troops are destroyed day by day.

Quote

He has to fail first before he’d even consider it.

He already failed at most of the things he tried to accomplish. Now he's desperately trying to save face, but it's unclear that he can actually mount much of an offensive to get anything done.

[Guphz]

2 hours ago, Thaidup said:

News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

Why not just talk?

What's the point in talking to a liar like Putin? Putin has been lying constantly. Remember all the obvious and pathetically carried out false flag operations he did to create a reason to invade? Yeah, they were so poorly done that it was obvious that things were planned in advanced. Even the videos published by Russia and claimed to be new were shown to have been made days and even weeks ago.

You can't believe a word Putin says. The only way to get through to him is to defeat him.

[Guphz]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:49 PM, NorskTiger said:

I think it is easy to say that from a distance. 

     Neither is Zelensky in much danger. 

         To the last Ukrainean.

           Long live NATO!!

Why are you trying to speak on behalf of Ukrainians? Please stop it.

Zelensky has something like 90% support, completely unheard of. Ukrainians support him, and they want to keep fighting Russia.

It is none of our business to tell them whether to fight or not.

Yes, we are lucky to have NATO, as it offers protection from evil, brutal psychopaths like Putin.

By the way, Zelensky remained in Kyiv and with his people. He is a brave man and a great leader. Meanwhile, Putin was cowering alone in his bunker, afraid of his own shadow.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Guphz

[Guphz]

On 4/18/2022 at 12:54 AM, Freeduhdumb said:

As a former member of the OSCE from 2016-2021 (you're going to have to go look that up) I can tell you the conflict that has been raging in Ukraine since the "West's" engineered coup de tat, regime change operation back in 2014 is no longer a conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

This is nonsense.

There was no coup in 2014. It was the people rising up against a president who was trying to bring Ukraine under Russian rule. Ukrainians had tasted the sweet taste of freedom in the west, and wanted none of it. So protests grew stronger and stronger until the Russian puppet started killing protesters. That was the lasts straw. The Russian puppet ended up escaping to Russia.

So no coup. Just the majority of the people rising up against a pro-Russian puppet, and successfully chasing him away.

There have been two democratic elections since. So even if 2014 was a coup, which it wasn't as demonstrated above, that would have been irrelevant because we are now in 2022 and two democratic elections away from 2014.

[NorskTiger]

14 hours ago, Guphz said:

Why are you trying to speak on behalf of Ukrainians? Please stop it.

Zelensky has something like 90% support, completely unheard of. Ukrainians support him, and they want to keep fighting Russia.

It is none of our business to tell them whether to fight or not.

Yes, we are lucky to have NATO, as it offers protection from evil, brutal psychopaths like Putin.

By the way, Zelensky remained in Kyiv and with his people. He is a brave man and a great leader. Meanwhile, Putin was cowering alone in his bunker, afraid of his own shadow.

WOW!! Zelensky has "90%" support? Really? And where is the source of that? What "scientific" polling has been done on this? Does it include all of Ukraine? How is it sampled? 

     90% is getting close to Kim Il Sung levels.  

 

   HAHA, "NATO protects against Evil".. I think there are many thousands or HUNDREDS of thousands of relatives of dead people who may disagree with you. Yes, yes, Putin is a "psychopath". Such an easy way and simle world view. If Putin dies all Russia surrenders and they will do whatever CIA/Washington DC says, LOLLOL. 

  "none of my business"?! Should I wait to talk when the Nuclear threats become real? I believe Zel the Great himself has said there could be nuclear wepaons used. If so, what is he doing fermenting it?   

     Ukraine is my business as long as my country is taking part in this war. 

[NorskTiger]

14 hours ago, Guphz said:

This is nonsense.

There was no coup in 2014. It was the people rising up against a president who was trying to bring Ukraine under Russian rule. Ukrainians had tasted the sweet taste of freedom in the west, and wanted none of it. So protests grew stronger and stronger until the Russian puppet started killing protesters. That was the lasts straw. The Russian puppet ended up escaping to Russia.

So no coup. Just the majority of the people rising up against a pro-Russian puppet, and successfully chasing him away.

There have been two democratic elections since. So even if 2014 was a coup, which it wasn't as demonstrated above, that would have been irrelevant because we are now in 2022 and two democratic elections away from 2014.

So "even if something wrong happened in the past", it does not patter today? OK, then I assume you are fine with Crimea and the two independent republics joining Russia too then. 

      And a legitimately elected leader was toppled. It matters little how it happened. This is a typical recipe if it is difficult to win an election. Also, the division in Ukraine really got off after that. 

      "The people" were not rising up. It was mob rule that took over. And there was no democratic process, which the West is always so proud of. 

    Double standards as always. To the West, "democracy" is great at long as it doesn't hurt the wrong people..

[Poop]

Wow, Norsk Tiger. You really are delusional. Or you are a Russian bot, lol. I guess you are saying that Putin is a democratically elected leader while Zelensky is not. That is pretty funny.... And it is so opposite from the truth. But your only purpose is to spin whatever lies Putin tells you to spin right?

 

This war that Russia has started is reaching new lows by the Russians. The Russians are doing genocide against the Ukrainian people. Maybe not with the speed that was done in Cambodia but still they are wiping out entire villages with indiscriminate artillery. But what really is disturbing is the rape of women and children the soldiers are committing and the fact that their commanders have authorized the killing of civilians as apparently they are all Nazis? What is being revealed from village after village the Ukrainians have liberated is mass graves and civilians being executed with a bullet to the head. There are so many examples of war crimes that this is beyond attempted genocide. 

What would you do if a stranger broke into your house raped your daughter and killed your family while saying we are here to protect you from Nazis? Then they leave and take all your valuables to bring back to Russia as common criminals? Then you have wife's of Russian soldiers saying it is ok to rape women just make sure you use protection. This war that Russia has started is not going to end well. I feel sorry for the Russians who do not support Putin yet are going to have to live with the label of being Russian. The atrocities that Russians are committing is beyond shooting down civilian airliners. I worry that we are in slow motion for world war 3 and with Russian newsbroadcasters joking that they will nuke all of america and it would be funny I have no idea how they think over there any more. The Russian army can barely take any territory from Ukraine. How would they do if they were at war with NATO and had to deal with incursions on all areas of their border? I doubt their nukes even work seeing how well their Moskova did and it was cutting edge as it was considerably newer than their nukes. 

Russian people need to start taking responsibility for their leaders actions or else their travel abroad will not be that friendly as the history under Putins Legacy is not going to be kind to them.

 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

Should I wait to talk when the Nuclear threats become real?

To believe that you have to believe Putin is not rational. To date there is no reason to believe he is crazy or suicidal. If his intention is to recreate a Russian empire and be mentioned in the same breath as Peter the Great or Stalin (because Russian actually still think he was a great leader), then you can’t believe he would ever used nuclear weapons. Those two objectives run counter to each other. 
 

It’s nothing more than a hollow threat to shape the battlefield. To make NATO stay on one side of the border while Russia gets to do unspeakable things on the other side. It’s partially worked, but at the same time it’s blown up in his face too. It’s lead to the revitalization and strengthening of NATO and the West. It’s also lead to the further expansion of NATO with Finland and Sweden soon to join. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

So "even if something wrong happened in the past", it does not patter today? OK, then I assume you are fine with Crimea and the two independent republics joining Russia too then. 

      And a legitimately elected leader was toppled. It matters little how it happened. This is a typical recipe if it is difficult to win an election. Also, the division in Ukraine really got off after that. 

      "The people" were not rising up. It was mob rule that took over. And there was no democratic process, which the West is always so proud of. 

    Double standards as always. To the West, "democracy" is great at long as it doesn't hurt the wrong people..

Cant speak for others but yeah I have issues with the fraudulent election in the Crimea which gave Czar Putin the excuse to annex that territory. 

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

Ukraine is my business as long as my country is taking part in this war.

You mean Russia?
I didn't know Norway was taking part in this war.

[Grumpish]

2 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

So "even if something wrong happened in the past", it does not patter today? OK, then I assume you are fine with Crimea and the two independent republics joining Russia too then. 

      And a legitimately elected leader was toppled. It matters little how it happened. This is a typical recipe if it is difficult to win an election. Also, the division in Ukraine really got off after that. 

      "The people" were not rising up. It was mob rule that took over. And there was no democratic process, which the West is always so proud of. 

    Double standards as always. To the West, "democracy" is great at long as it doesn't hurt the wrong people..

Yes, obviously Moscow would regard the deposing of their puppet as illegitimate. However, to say that it was not a popular move with the Ukrainian people - as opposed to the Russian backed separatists in east of the country - ignores the results of the democratic (in spite of Russia's attempts to interfere) elections that have been held since.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Grumpish

[Fanta]

21 hours ago, Guphz said:

What stalemate? Russia has just performed a massive retreat from most of Ukraine. And in other areas, they have been beaten back. And every day that passes by, Ukraine gets more and better weapons. Meanwhile, Russian troops are destroyed day by day.

A forum rule is that, within reason, if you state something as a fact then you need to supply a credible source for verification. The Russian are advancing not retreating. The 2nd map shows the direction of forces. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
 

[Fanta]

On 4/23/2022 at 3:21 AM, EdwardV said:

There was news today Russian Brigadier General Rustam Minnekayev said the new plan is to take all of southern Ukraine to connect to the Transnistria area of Moldova (it was never just about the Donbas). Of course that doesn't make Moldova very happy since that is really part of their country, and why just take Transnistria when you can just as easily take all of Moldova. If true, it means a lot more war. Ukraine will fight to the death over the area since losing access to the Black Sea is economic death for them. The West knows this too (read a LOT more weapons). Keeping in mind that means taking Odesa, which is now heavily fortified. Think Mariupol times five. Scary times brother, scary times. 

Russian General Announces Plan to Invade Moldova after Ukraine (yahoo.com)

Scary times indeed. Why would the Russian Brigadier General even say that? It seems to run counter to Putin’s justifications & stated goals for Ukraine. Another concern is that with all the big artillery arriving will the Ukrainian scrap metal dealers have enough room to store all the slightly used Russian steel about to flood the market? 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Why would the Russian Brigadier General even say that? It seems to run counter to Putin’s justifications & stated goals for Ukraine.

It does seem strange but you also don’t see that kind of info sent out without it being pre approved either. 
 

Did you see Boris Johnson is offering to send tanks to Poland so they can send more T-72s to Ukraine? (Poland still has about 4-500 of them):
 

But he pledged to step up British support to Kyiv, saying: “We are looking more at what we can do to backfill in countries such as Poland, who may want to send heavier weaponry to help defend the Ukrainians. We are looking at sending tanks to Poland to help them as they send some of their T72s to Ukraine.”

It’s interesting because the Pols don’t know how to use the Challenger2. While they probably have the several weeks to get trained it’s still a strange offer. Unless that is it comes wrapped in a UK heavy tank brigade. Maybe it’s an excuse to do just that, get additional UK troops in theater? Or maybe it’s an effort to get the next big polish tank order hahaha. 
 

https://inews.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-says-uk-will-reopen-british-embassy-in-kyiv-in-wake-of-russian-invasion-1589024

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Did you see Boris Johnson is offering to send tanks to Poland so they can send more T-72s to Ukraine? (Poland still has about 4-500 of them):

And Germany are doing the same

“The planned workaround would see NATO ally Slovenia send a large number of its T-72 battle tanks to Ukraine. To replace these, Germany would then send Slovenia a number of Marder tanks and Fox wheeled tanks from its own supplies.“

https://m.dw.com/en/germany-plans-workaround-for-arms-deliveries-to-ukraine/a-61547233

If we believe the Russians claims from 1 month ago of 827 Ukrainian tanks destroyed then some replacements are needed - 6500 tanks pre invasion.

https://tass.com/defense/1418143 

 

 

[EdwardV]

52 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And Germany are doing the same

Kinda. The UK is offering top of the line tanks not cast off AFVs. While Slovenia is accepting, they were also not impressed. 
 

You know it got me thinking. You know what else is in Poland? Ukrainian troops. What are the chances the Ukrainian troops will also be trained to operate those tanks? Sooner or later the west is going to run out of old Russian gear… after all, Ukraine has been asking for Western tanks. They are tired of fact when Russia tanks get hit, they have a bad habit of killing the entire crew at the same time. 

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

You know it got me thinking. You know what else is in Poland? Ukrainian troops. What are the chances the Ukrainian troops will also be trained to operate those tanks? 

I figure what Poland does with Poland’s  tanks is Poland’s business  

Germany’s response to Russia

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by KaptainRob
Off topic pic removed - refer FG's

[Smithydog]

On 4/23/2022 at 3:12 AM, Thaidup said:

This is why I should avoid these topics. Because I instantly think of Iraq, and the invasion that led to a stable country becoming a haven for Islamic extremists and the hanging of bloke that kept all of that away. And now the American tax payer is dumping billions into a new war, FFS they just got out of Aghanastan, And now they have to be funding another war. Howabout letting the American people decide on the funding, have a referendum, IE spend the money in Ukraine or in America?

Considering the latest US Polls shows support for the action, with many demanding harsher sanctions, not sure a vote would go the way you think.

"Most Americans are in favor of the U.S. sanctioning Russia for the invasion, providing weapons to Ukraine and accepting refugees from Ukraine into the U.S. More Americans also support than oppose deploying U.S. troops to Eastern Europe to support U.S. NATO allies in response to Russia’s invasion, and about two-thirds say NATO membership is good for the U.S."

https://www.examiner.net/2022/04/22/in-poll-many-say-u-s-not-tough-enough-on-russia/

Besides there apparently being no federal government referendum mechanism.

"There is no provision for the holding of referendums at the federal level in the United States, which the Constitution does not provide for."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_by_country

An considering the US support for Ukraine is one of the few topics that has visible and repeated widespread bi-partisan support in probably one of the most partisan US Congresses ever, I doubt either side would  support such a motion, even if an option was available.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-04-21/u-s-house-to-consider-new-aid-for-ukraine-as-soon-as-next-week-pelosi

The Russian Invasion has done one thing that many thought was not possible. Unite people.
 

[NorskTiger]

13 hours ago, Alavan said:

You mean Russia?
I didn't know Norway was taking part in this war.

Norway is also sending weapons to Ukraine, so as long as my tax money are being used to fuel a war, it definitely affects me. 

      In Kirkenes, next to Russia border, they are talking about removing street signs in Russian. There normally are street signs in Norwegian, but many also in Russian and Sami. One in ten people living there are Russian with many Russian children nwo being bullied at school. 

     Norway is DEFINITELY part of this war.  

[NorskTiger]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

Considering the latest US Polls shows support for the action, with many demanding harsher sanctions, not sure a vote would go the way you think.

"Most Americans are in favor of the U.S. sanctioning Russia for the invasion, providing weapons to Ukraine and accepting refugees from Ukraine into the U.S. More Americans also support than oppose deploying U.S. troops to Eastern Europe to support U.S. NATO allies in response to Russia’s invasion, and about two-thirds say NATO membership is good for the U.S."

https://www.examiner.net/2022/04/22/in-poll-many-say-u-s-not-tough-enough-on-russia/

Besides there apparently being no federal government referendum mechanism.

"There is no provision for the holding of referendums at the federal level in the United States, which the Constitution does not provide for."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_by_country

An considering the US support for Ukraine is one of the few topics that has visible and repeated widespread bi-partisan support in probably one of the most partisan US Congresses ever, I doubt either side would  support such a motion, even if an option was available.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-04-21/u-s-house-to-consider-new-aid-for-ukraine-as-soon-as-next-week-pelosi

The Russian Invasion has done one thing that many thought was not possible. Unite people.
 

These polls who support war against Russia are designed by the same media who present a 100% one-sided picture. I am not so sure if the American people are willing to drop further in livign standard; see their dollar losing it's value even more; see prices on everything go up up up and vitness even more homeless in their cities. 

    For the most the US Congress IS "bipartisan" and so are most of the politicians. They support highest bidder and the so-called "democracy" there is a joke. 

   

  

[NorskTiger]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

I figure what Poland does with Poland’s  tanks is Poland’s business  

Germany’s response to Russia

 

         I believe Germany is a little apprehensive about a third campaign in the East in a little over 100 years. One war broke their emerging empire and the second destroyed their country.  I believe Germany has a breaking pint here. 

[Marble-eye]

9 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Norway is also sending weapons to Ukraine, so as long as my tax money are being used to fuel a war, it definitely affects me. 

      In Kirkenes, next to Russia border, they are talking about removing street signs in Russian. There normally are street signs in Norwegian, but many also in Russian and Sami. One in ten people living there are Russian with many Russian children nwo being bullied at school. 

     Norway is DEFINITELY part of this war.  

So shouldn't your anger be directed at Putin? 

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Norway is also sending weapons to Ukraine, so as long as my tax money are being used to fuel a war, it definitely affects me. 

      In Kirkenes, next to Russia border, they are talking about removing street signs in Russian. There normally are street signs in Norwegian, but many also in Russian and Sami. One in ten people living there are Russian with many Russian children nwo being bullied at school. 

     Norway is DEFINITELY part of this war.  

On what basis are Russians settled in Norway? Why would Norway need them ?