News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[dbrenn]

45 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But instead he decided to wage a war on a hotbed of nazi ideology which had recently elected a Jewish President and a Jewish Prime Minister

That's a good point, but one has to wonder how long the coexistence of the Azov Battalion and the Jewish prime minister will hold up? Already, Zelensky was overruled by them when he tried to implement Minsk II. The general public gave him a mandate do do one thing, power which the far right has hijacked and thwarted because they want the other thing. 

Here's where oldschooler starts raging again. 

[Fester]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

Link just posted. Should we now move on to the Right Sector and the Azov Battalion, famed for their use,  believe it or not as part of Ukraine’s regular army, of sporting Nazi insignia such as the wolfsangel and panzer chevrons, while they coached lovable old grannies to use semi-automatic rifles 

 

no.

[Fester]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

Zelensky was actually elected on rapprochement with Russia and the Minsk II treaty was part of an effort to turn Ukraine into a federation, similar to places like Switzerland, the US or Australia. One that included all the various ethnicities in the Donbass and elsewhere. 

He tried, but he was overruled by far right nationalists, and he had no choice other than to concede.

Now you might understand the value of linked references.

[dbrenn]

5 minutes ago, Fester said:

no.

Why not? Do you hate debate?

[Fester]

8 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

That's a good point, but one has to wonder how long the coexistence of the Azov Battalion and the Jewish prime minister will hold up? Already, Zelensky was overruled by them when he tried to implement Minsk II. The general public gave him a mandate do do one thing, power which the far right has hijacked and thwarted because they want the other thing. 

Here's where oldschooler starts raging again. 

No - here's where you need to prove your claim - again!

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

That's a good point, but one has to wonder how long the coexistence of the Azov Battalion and the Jewish prime minister will hold up? Already, Zelensky was overruled by them when he tried to implement Minsk II. The general public gave him a mandate do do one thing, power which the far right has hijacked and thwarted because they want the other thing. 

Here's where oldschooler starts raging again. 

Unevidenced Conspiracy Theory. 
2000 Azov neo-  Nazis ain’t gonna tell shit to the elected Ukrainian President backed by half a million other military & police & the nation. 
 

Isn’t it common sense and more likely that Zelensky realized that his political career just started wouldn’t be worth a wet fart by agreeing to a Russian humiliation & neutering of Ukraine and that he rightly hated & rejected Minsk enaction / compliance,  no matter what was signed under Russian duress ? 

[dbrenn]

9 minutes ago, Fester said:

No  -  you need to start a new topic then nurture it lovingly.

Check out the header. Ukraine is the topic here. Makes me laugh when people try to shut down the debate by saying otherwise, simply because they want to monopolise the discussion. 

[BigHewer]

A number of posts and their replies have been removed. Whilst tangential references to other parts of the world are fine, full blown discussions of Syria and Iraq are not. The topic of this thread is: “Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons” - let’s keep it there.

Additionally, members are asked not to make personal comments about other members. Debate the content, but don’t insult the member. 

(Many thanks to those members who have already complied.)

Regards,

Moderator
 

[Fester]

2 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Why not? Do you hate debate?

The Azov argument was up and around on here months ago but it since retired hurt.

I enjoy debate but only with measured and civilized people, like Haw Haw and Nanook  . 

[oldschooler]

17 minutes ago, Fester said:

no.

Azov somewhat symbolic as useful Russian propaganda ( if Wagner Group ignored) but always peripheral, of no real significance and now probably near wiped out /captured. So can we now get serious & move on perhaps ? 
Or talk about their still - active ghost- like Russian Equivalents, Wagner Group ?  

[oldschooler]

26 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

That's a good point, but one has to wonder how long the coexistence of the Azov Battalion and the Jewish prime minister will hold up? Already, Zelensky was overruled by them when he tried to implement Minsk II. The general public gave him a mandate do do one thing, power which the far right has hijacked and thwarted because they want the other thing. 

Here's where oldschooler starts raging again. 

“ challenging” , dbrenn, “ challenging” …

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, dbrenn said:

You seem to rage a lot.

Not Really. Strongly Argue perhaps. You seem to insidiously present the pro - Russian case under thin guise of “ even- handedness” 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

That's a good point, but one has to wonder how long the coexistence of the Azov Battalion and the Jewish prime minister will hold up? Already, Zelensky was overruled by them when he tried to implement Minsk II. The general public gave him a mandate do do one thing, power which the far right has hijacked and thwarted because they want the other thing. 

Here's where oldschooler starts raging again. 

Ah so the Azov battalion has control? Given the Azov battalion no longer exists in practical terms who is running the Ukraine now?

[EdwardV]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

Or maybe some of the children are in pro Russian families who voluntarily left Ukraine to go to Russia? No, that’s treason! Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety? Of course not, all lies! Russia decided to burden themselves with 200,000 snot bubblers

Besides the first sentence being a obvious assumption on your part. The biggest problem is there is no accounting for the children. Do you really not see the glaringly bad optics of taking some 200K Ukrainian children out of their country and they just disappearing into Russia? Who knows if they are with Russian family members? However, we do know they are no longer with Ukrainian family members. Was it done for humanitarian efforts, probably. At the same time, expecting anyone outside of Russia to believe that is a stretch. After all the words "humanitarian" and "Russia" don't really seem to belong together in the same sentence at the present time. Burden? A country the size of Russia with a collapsing demographic, could easily take double that amount of kids and wouldn't even notice. Hardly a burden ... even if they can't load a gun.  

[NorskTiger]

9 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Not at all. I do recommend you back your opinions and views with credible links though.

I don't thinbk one's VIEWS OR OPINIONS need to be "backed up" by anything, These are O-P-I-N-I-O-N-S. 

    What are you talking about? Is ot not allowed to have own thoughts any more?

   

[NorskTiger]

9 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Perfectly Justified Action. Let Russia provide Water since it stole that land. No responsibility on Ukraine to do that. Your stance is most peculiar. 

So when a link is provided, the rhetoric is turned around to "justified action". Where is the LINK to document such a justification?

[Thaidup]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:53 PM, Fanta said:

Sorry to disappoint both sides of the MacDonalds debate but a franchisee of MacDonalds has agreed to buy all MickeyDs assets in Russia. They won’t be called Big Macs anymore but the Vlad Burger will probably have the same artery clogging goodness we’ve come to loath and love.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/mcdonalds-sell-russia-business-current-licensee-2022-05-19/

They didnt even really walk away did they. so much for "principles" Capitalism rules in Russia. LOL. Turns out to be hard to "Put your money where your mouth is" when it will cost money.

[dbrenn]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Ah so the Azov battalion has control? Given the Azov battalion no longer exists in practical terms who is running the Ukraine now?

The Azov Battalion and the Right Sector has become part of the Ukrainian government, but do you really think that in doing so they've discarded their extreme right wing views, which like Nazis who came before them includes the promotion of a master race? This is a central plank of Nazi ideology, as we all know. 

[Fanta]

6 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Besides the first sentence being a obvious assumption on your part. The biggest problem is there is no accounting for the children. Do you really not see the glaringly bad optics of taking some 200K Ukrainian children out of their country and they just disappearing into Russia? Who knows if they are with Russian family members? However, we do know they are no longer with Ukrainian family members. Was it done for humanitarian efforts, probably. At the same time, expecting anyone outside of Russia to believe that is a stretch. After all the words "humanitarian" and "Russia" don't really seem to belong together in the same sentence at the present time. Burden? A country the size of Russia with a collapsing demographic, could easily take double that amount of kids and wouldn't even notice. Hardly a burden ... even if they can't load a gun.  

My assumption that there are pro Russian families is far more  plausible than your assumption that every Ukrainian hates Russia. Poland accepts 4 million refugees. Russia forcibly moved 1 million people. Really? I think it is a misrepresentation of what happened. Why burden your country with 1 million hostages, it makes no sense. Of course it is bad optics when it is promoted as an abduction. Just because Ukraine says it doesn’t mean it is true. 

[dbrenn]

41 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

So when a link is provided, the rhetoric is turned around to "justified action". Where is the LINK to document such a justification?

That's a good point. But maybe all the tabloid press and CNN feeders here are so deprived of information that they really don't know what investigative journalism is anymore. 

You'd think that a simple approach of reading news from multiple sources (rather than hysterical tabloid that use strong and emotional language to whip up the masses) would be more common than it is. It's important to form nuanced opinions from various sources of information, rather than just one, because the truth often lies neither on one side, nor the other.

Whatever happened to critical thinking without being insulted, jeered and shouted at? It's supposed to be the cornerstone of our democracy. 

Thanks to the posters here who are polite.

[EdwardV]

21 minutes ago, Fanta said:

My assumption that there are pro Russian families is far more  plausible than your assumption that every Ukrainian hates Russia.

When did I assume that? 

If you are referencing an old statement of mind. It was probably more along the idea there are now less pro Russian Ukrainians than before. Of course that's to be expected when you bomb, murder, rape and loot the very section of Ukraine where most of them reside. 

[Thaidup]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Ah so the Azov battalion has control? Given the Azov battalion no longer exists in practical terms who is running the Ukraine now?

Prove that statement. Do you mean militarily in Asovstal? where they were "evacuated" (surrendered). Or do you mean politically. Because if you mean "politically" than you will have to admit that they had political influence. LOL

[dbrenn]

25 minutes ago, Fanta said:

My assumption that there are pro Russian families is far more  plausible than your assumption that every Ukrainian hates Russia. Poland accepts 4 million refugees. Russia forcibly moved 1 million people. Really? I think it is a misrepresentation of what happened. Why burden your country with 1 million hostages, it makes no sense. Of course it is bad optics when it is promoted as an abduction. Just because Ukraine says it doesn’t mean it is true. 

The blind belief that everything Ukraine says must true by many here baffles me too. Doesn't it occur to people that in wars either side will say anything - anything at all- to score points in the vital propaganda part that exists in war?

You have to hand it to Ukraine, they are masters in the art of rhetoric. 

[Thaidup]

11 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

The blind belief that everything Ukraine says must true by many here baffles me too. Doesn't it occur to people that in wars either side will say anything - anything at all- to score points in the vital propaganda part that exists in war?

You have to hand it to Ukraine, they are masters in the art of rhetoric. 

You have to hand it to Ukraine, they are masters in the art of rhetoric. 

One might have a guess why,

Was RT banned everywhere?

It is so annoying, they think we cant tell when they are lying, they have to shut down any opposing viewpoint.

It's like "mostly peaceful riots" while buildings are burning in the background

[Fanta]

32 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

You have to hand it to Ukraine, they are masters in the art of rhetoric. 

The only war that Ukraine is winning is the social media war. 20% of Ukraine is under Russian control. 125,000 square miles.  Access to import and export via the sea ports is blocked. Ukraine is now a landlocked country.Weapons are being rushed piecemeal to the front in an attempt to slow Russia’s progress. Reversing Russias progress is a pipe dream. Zelenskyy’s claim that Ukraine will not cede territory for peace condemns Ukraine to further destruction. His bold claim that Ukraine will take back all territories under Russian control is simply not grounded in reality. Every day Ukraine’s  military logistics & capabilities are being degraded. The only way Ukraine can critically impact Russia and take control of the battlefield is with a nuke. After the Donbas region falls Zelenskyy will have to fall on his political sword and cede the region or risk being removed by pragmatic minds in his own government that see the inevitable road to ruin that Ukraine is on. Ukraine can talk the talk but they cannot walk the walk.