News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[NorskTiger]

21 hours ago, oldschooler said:

which tactic you constantly deploy as pathetic deflection from truth and in pushing your transparent pro- Russian / anti -NATO nonsense.

No, you are confused here. 

 I am talking about your desperate "whataboutism" every time you are being confronted with the inability to explain the double standards in your rhetoric. 

    You can of course continue to be haughty as much as you want, but th reality on the ground is not changed by that. 

     So you are pushing a pro-NATO/Anti-Russian "sense"? 

     Back to the topic. What can Zelensky do any more?  I think it is a question of time before the entire war is financed fully by the West; Ukrainean economy is handled by the West. The question is, let's say there will be no reaching out for peace. Will this mean Ukraine prefers a situation where the only remaining thing is a landlocked pocket West of Dnepr and North of the Black Sea? Is that even beneficial for NATO? 

    With the "terms" laid out by the West so far, there is ZERO incentive for Russia to give in. This means a protracted conflict and let us hope it remains confined to Ukriane. 

[EdwardV]

34 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

So does your allegations give UK soldiers a free pass to murder IRaqi civillians?

Besides the fact I already did condemn the past actions. I’m not the one trying to give the free pass, that would be you. Do you condemn what Putin is doing completely? 

[EdwardV]

30 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

With the "terms" laid out by the West so far, there is ZERO incentive for Russia to give in. This means a protracted conflict and let us hope it remains confined to Ukriane. 

What terms hade been laid out by the west that are any different than those from Ukraine? Don’t worry, the Russian army will have been ground down to a little nub long before Ukraine becomes land locked. If you haven’t noticed in the news, Russia is losing ground in the south. Not gaining. 

[Fester]

35 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

And a classic deflection from your part when confronted with an immense double standard over events that are happening at same time in different place by different actors. 

      So does your allegations give UK soldiers a free pass to murder IRaqi civillians?

Immense double standard? At the same time? Rubbish. At least UK soldiers in Iraq were investigated and any bad actions are not a "standard" of UK forces, unlike what seems to be par for the criminal Orcs so far. 

Certainly the difference in the alleged scale and speed of civilian murders shows Russia leading easily in that respect .... and that's only after 3 months. 

[Marble-eye]

6 hours ago, dbrenn said:

No need to get your knickers in a twist mate. My post was obviously about questioning our attitude towards Ukraine, and our hypocrisy in thinking that it's alright for us to kill civilians but it's a war crime when the Russians do it. By ignoring that valid comparison, you're narrowing the debate by being intentionally obtuse. 

People in the West seem to need a bogeyman, and are ill at ease without one.

When we comparing palm on little children, it's fine. But when others do it, you rail against dead civilians. A double standard, if ever there was one, or are American napalm and high explosives somehow 'nicer' than what Russia uses?

Very perplexing, this Ukraine obsession.

Your posts remind me of the Ramblings of Syd Rumpo.

"in thinking that it's alright for us to kill civilians but it's a war crime when the Russians do it. By ignoring that valid comparison,"

Who has said it is all right for us to kill civilians, I cannot remember anyone on here saying that, did you fabricate that yourself. Indeed at this very moment the courts are looking into an incident that happened in Northern Ireland 50 years ago by one of our soldiers whose round happened to ricochet off a building and killed someone. That's what our governments think of their soldiers and it's not the first time.

"People in the West seem to need a bogeyman, and are ill at ease without one."

If the west does need a bogeyman, they have certainly found one in the monster Putin.

"When we comparing palm on little children, it's fine."

Again who said it's fine to Palm little children, let me help you, no-one, it's just you letting your imagination run wild and coming out with gibberish.

"Very perplexing, this Ukraine obsession."

The only person that seems perplexed is yourself, remember "the truth will set you free"

At least Noggin the Nog is in total agreement with you, so no surprises there.

 

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

No, you are confused here. 

 I am talking about your desperate "whataboutism" every time you are being confronted with the inability to explain the double standards in your rhetoric. 

    You can of course continue to be haughty as much as you want, but th reality on the ground is not changed by that. 

     So you are pushing a pro-NATO/Anti-Russian "sense"? 

     Back to the topic. What can Zelensky do any more?  I think it is a question of time before the entire war is financed fully by the West; Ukrainean economy is handled by the West. The question is, let's say there will be no reaching out for peace. Will this mean Ukraine prefers a situation where the only remaining thing is a landlocked pocket West of Dnepr and North of the Black Sea? Is that even beneficial for NATO? 

    With the "terms" laid out by the West so far, there is ZERO incentive for Russia to give in. This means a protracted conflict and let us hope it remains confined to Ukriane. 

I have NEVER dealt in what-about or double standards or “ haughty”.

I leave all that to you.

I firmly challenge any deranged propaganda supporting EVIL and or indeed any false statements.

It is clearly only PUTIN who can either bring Peace by Withdrawing back within his shithole country OR stupidly expand the war & to where, other than NATO  lands ? Hope he does  to get his entire forces in Europe obliterated & him hooked from all power.

There are no western “terms” given to Putin. No Point. West wants to continue their plan of grinding down Russia in Ukraine & by Sanctions. Both Russia & NATO require Ukraine as Buffer State, for obvious strategic reasons.

Clearly I am pro- NATO / anti-Russia & always have been, for obvious reasons. 
 

We all have our own opinions about “the reality on the ground”. 
Agree war is “ in the balance”. Let’s await the outcome of US M777 Howitzers & Rocket MLRS Deployments shall we? Very Bad News for Russia. 
 

Hilarious to see Russia now crying like little frightened girls that’s it’s “ unfair” the West is supporting Ukraine with Heavy Weapons ! As if the almighty Gangster Tyrants cannot be touched by any enemy maximum effort. 
And that any attacks on them must NOT BE MADE ON RUSSIAN LANDS.

Of course the defenders have the right to strike Moscow, Belgorod or anywhere else in Russia Russia hypocrites stupidly attempting to rewrite the rules of war ….. to suit only themselves of course. 
 

But probably wise of USA to publically insist on no Ukrainian strikes over the border with any of their US long range heavy weapons….the unhinged Putin Regime does after all hold nuclear weapons…
 

 

 

[Smithydog]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

The "whataboutism" pettiness absolves Western trolls from ever having to be held up to the standards they make themsevles. 

So where is your anger and disgust as to what is being revealed as to what Russian soldiers have been doing in Ukraine. Or is ok for them to shoot civilians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GUrNPPTSWM

There are many of us "westerners" who abhor all warfare, whoever is doing it and when. Your seemingly ongoing support for Russia and the crimes they continue to commit, yet seem reluctant to acknowledge, gives you little right to "preach" to others. Hiding such crimes is just aiding and abetting whoever is doing them.

“Russia has an international legal obligation to impartially investigate alleged war crimes by its soldiers,” 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas

So do we hear of Putin ordering an investigation. No, he instead honours the men who protected the "fatherland" in the Ukraine war in the illegal invasion.

https://theprint.in/world/putin-honours-russian-soldiers-who-committed-war-crimes-in-bucha/921774/

Interesting word. Same was used by the Nazis to describe their country. They too seemed to turn a blind eye to war crimes. Unusual, how coincidences just keep popping up from someone seemingly committed to denazification.

[oldschooler]

14 hours ago, Fanta said:

It was written tongue in cheek. Who knows what Russia’s plans are for the invasion. 

To Expensively DIE, Degrade & Suffer Massive Humiliation, by the look of things  oh, & to replace their General / Colonel Officer Class , like Stalin Did). 

[Fanta]

9 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Who has said it is all right for us to kill civilians

Who said it is OK to fight battles inside cities? 

Today’s Ukrainian outrage of the day should get your panties in a bunch.

Moscow abducted 200,000 children – Kyiv

“President Zelenskyy says the children are among Ukrainians forcibly taken to Russia and include children from orphanages, children taken with their parents and those separated from their families”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1/biden-to-meet-nato-chief-as-russia-advances-in-ukraine-liveblog

Do you think this is to fill the ranks of the  Putin Youth? It must be because the Russians also raided the orphanages for the most vulnerable and therefore easiest to brainwash recruits. Cult indoctrination!  Or maybe some of the children are in pro Russian families who voluntarily left Ukraine to go to Russia? No, that’s treason! Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety? Of course not, all lies! Russia decided to burden themselves with 200,000 snot bubblers that cannot even load a rifle let alone carry one. Human shields! That must be it! At least they will be well fed with all the stolen wheat they can eat. Oh wait, Russia exports over double the amount of wheat of Ukraine…

Understanding propaganda is so difficult if you think about it. 

[oldschooler]

Just now, Fanta said:

Who said it is OK to fight battles inside cities? 

Today’s Ukrainian outrage of the day should get your panties in a bunch.

Moscow abducted 200,000 children – Kyiv

“President Zelenskyy says the children are among Ukrainians forcibly taken to Russia and include children from orphanages, children taken with their parents and those separated from their families”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1/biden-to-meet-nato-chief-as-russia-advances-in-ukraine-liveblog

Do you think this is to fill the ranks of the  Putin Youth? It must be because the Russians also raided the orphanages for the most vulnerable and therefore easiest to brainwash recruits. Cult indoctrination!  Or maybe some of the children are in pro Russian families who voluntarily left Ukraine to go to Russia? No, that’s treason! Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety? Of course not, all lies! Russia decided to burden themselves with 200,000 snot bubblers that cannot even load a rifle let alone carry one. Human shields! That must be it! At least they will be well fed with all the stolen wheat they can eat. Oh wait, Russia exports over double the amount of wheat of Ukraine…

Understanding propaganda is so difficult if you think about it. 

Don’t be so Naive. Seriously………

Of course this Russian action was BOUND to be seen ONLY negatively ( enemy child hostages for future blackmail / concessions) in view of Russias entire litany of Actions & Statement being Evil, Hostile, Fearful, Belligerent, Murderous CRIMRS & LIES.
 

ONLY passing on these poor suffering terrified children at once to NATO or Neutral or Other Nation like Finland next door, would Establish Good Faith.
 

Unsurprisingly this of course, true to form, has Not Happened.

[oldschooler]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Who said it is OK to fight battles inside cities? 

Today’s Ukrainian outrage of the day should get your panties in a bunch.

Moscow abducted 200,000 children – Kyiv

“President Zelenskyy says the children are among Ukrainians forcibly taken to Russia and include children from orphanages, children taken with their parents and those separated from their families”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1/biden-to-meet-nato-chief-as-russia-advances-in-ukraine-liveblog

Do you think this is to fill the ranks of the  Putin Youth? It must be because the Russians also raided the orphanages for the most vulnerable and therefore easiest to brainwash recruits. Cult indoctrination!  Or maybe some of the children are in pro Russian families who voluntarily left Ukraine to go to Russia? No, that’s treason! Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety? Of course not, all lies! Russia decided to burden themselves with 200,000 snot bubblers that cannot even load a rifle let alone carry one. Human shields! That must be it! At least they will be well fed with all the stolen wheat they can eat. Oh wait, Russia exports over double the amount of wheat of Ukraine…

Understanding propaganda is so difficult if you think about it. 

Again there is little or no equivalence between Good Propaganda boosting morale of defender victims ( WW2 UK / USA/ USSR) and Evil Propaganda supporting attacking tyranny ( Hitler/ Putin/ Xi). 
 

Nothing “ difficult” about which side / culture / govt. form is superior / desirable. Any rational educated person over 12 with a functioning moral compass can easily see what you (pretend or state) to find “difficult”. 

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Don’t be so Naive. Seriously………

Back at you. You cannot believe that 2% of the population of the former Soviet republic of Ukraine wanted to go to Russia? Where it is not a war zone, where they have family,  friends and support? You believe it is better to pass them off to a non Russian speaking country because the Russians aren’t fit human beings to care for children or their refugees?  Seriously….. 

[Marble-eye]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Who said it is OK to fight battles inside cities? 

Today’s Ukrainian outrage of the day should get your panties in a bunch.

Moscow abducted 200,000 children – Kyiv

“President Zelenskyy says the children are among Ukrainians forcibly taken to Russia and include children from orphanages, children taken with their parents and those separated from their families”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/1/biden-to-meet-nato-chief-as-russia-advances-in-ukraine-liveblog

Do you think this is to fill the ranks of the  Putin Youth? It must be because the Russians also raided the orphanages for the most vulnerable and therefore easiest to brainwash recruits. Cult indoctrination!  Or maybe some of the children are in pro Russian families who voluntarily left Ukraine to go to Russia? No, that’s treason! Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety? Of course not, all lies! Russia decided to burden themselves with 200,000 snot bubblers that cannot even load a rifle let alone carry one. Human shields! That must be it! At least they will be well fed with all the stolen wheat they can eat. Oh wait, Russia exports over double the amount of wheat of Ukraine…

Understanding propaganda is so difficult if you think about it. 

Do you actually believe this tripe you write

"Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety?"

The Russians don't have a humanitarian ounce of blood in their body. Anything said negative about the Russians and it's all hands to the pumps. Most sensible people who can think logically might be tempted to say that the most obvious reason for the displacement of children or any citizens of the Ukraine for that matter is ethnic cleansing or even genocide. But you'll have none of that will you, those nice Russians wouldn't dream of such a thing now would they.

This is from the BBC website. Giving various definitions of genocide. Take note of the last definition because it gives a more logical reason than you do!

 

• Killing members of the group
• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-11108059

 

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Any rational educated person over 12 with a functioning moral compass can easily see what you (pretend or state) to find “difficult”. 

Lessons in morality and tolerance from you? 555. Anyway I was pointing out the latest most glaring example of propaganda being spouted by the same people apparently inflicting devastating losses onto the enemy while they march backwards. I’m just letting you down gently otherwise I fear you will lose faith in mankind when Ukraine cede territory to the Russians in exchange for peace. It is coming. 

[Fanta]

10 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Do you actually believe this tripe you write

"Or was it a (dare I say the words) humanitarian effort by Russia to take the families & orphaned children out of a war zone and to a place of safety?"

The Russians don't have a humanitarian ounce of blood in their body. Anything said negative about the Russians and it's all hands to the pumps. Most sensible people who can think logically might be tempted to say that the most obvious reason for the displacement of children or any citizens of the Ukraine for that matter is ethnic cleansing or even genocide. But you'll have none of that will you, those nice Russians wouldn't dream of such a thing now would they.

This is from the BBC website. Giving various definitions of genocide. Take note of the last definition because it gives a more logical reason than you do!

• Killing members of the group
• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-11108059

Ethnic cleansing of Russians and pro Russian Ukrainians by Russia from inside Ukraine? I lol’d because your reply is so cute. And passionate! You deserve a Zelenskky’s Zealot badge. And a bonus MSMouseketters set of ears for slipping “genocide” into your rant. 

[Marble-eye]

Just now, Fanta said:

Ethnic cleansing of Russians by Russians from inside Ulraine? I lol’d because your reply is so cute. And passionate! You deserve a Zelenskky’s Zealot badge.

What's up with your usual "it's a waste of time arguing with you" when you fail to score a point.

'Russian' and 'humanitarian' should not be seen in the same sentence.

[dbrenn]

1 hour ago, Marble-eye said:

Your posts remind me of the Ramblings of Syd Rumpo.

"in thinking that it's alright for us to kill civilians but it's a war crime when the Russians do it. By ignoring that valid comparison,"

Who has said it is all right for us to kill civilians, I cannot remember anyone on here saying that, did you fabricate that yourself. Indeed at this very moment the courts are looking into an incident that happened in Northern Ireland 50 years ago by one of our soldiers whose round happened to ricochet off a building and killed someone. That's what our governments think of their soldiers and it's not the first time.

"People in the West seem to need a bogeyman, and are ill at ease without one."

If the west does need a bogeyman, they have certainly found one in the monster Putin.

"When we comparing palm on little children, it's fine."

Again who said it's fine to Palm little children, let me help you, no-one, it's just you letting your imagination run wild and coming out with gibberish.

"Very perplexing, this Ukraine obsession."

The only person that seems perplexed is yourself, remember "the truth will set you free"

At least Noggin the Nog is in total agreement with you, so no surprises there.

These days there's no measured or nuanced debate anymore about what are in fact complex subjects. All people seem to do is indulge in ad hominem rage against people who dare to question what they read in the tabloid press. 

It's sad, what's happening to our democracy,  once the seat of civilised debate, as it was. These days, you have to worship whatever is the fad of the day, or be insulted and vilified. 

[Marble-eye]

1 minute ago, dbrenn said:

These days there's no measured or nuanced debate anymore about what are in fact complex subjects. All people seem to do is indulge in ad hominem rage against people who dare to question what they read in the tabloid press. 

It's sad, what's happening to our democracy,  once the seat of civilised debate, as it was. These days, you have to worship whatever is the fad of the day, or be insulted and vilified. 

Two paragraphs and you have said nothing to my reply to you only more off topic deflection.

Note to self: file under gobbledygook (The bin).

[dbrenn]

7 minutes ago, Transam said:

You're on the wrong thread chap................

Really? Is this is the Zelensky worshipers thread then? Are only one dimensional views allowed? Kind of boring if you all sit around agreeing with each other, and isn't debate the purpose of this forum? Why are you here?

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Really? Is this is the Zelensky worshipers thread then? Are only one dimensional views allowed? Kind of boring if you all sit around agreeing with each other, and isn't debate the purpose of this forum? Why are you here?

Absolutely not. You are perfectly free to post your pro Putin propaganda and others are free to challenge it. 

The fact you are defending the indefensible is probably why you are having problems.

[vlad]

54 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Lessons in morality and tolerance from you? 555. Anyway I was pointing out the latest most glaring example of propaganda being spouted by the same people apparently inflicting devastating losses onto the enemy while they march backwards. I’m just letting you down gently otherwise I fear you will lose faith in mankind when Ukraine cede territory to the Russians in exchange for peace. It is coming. 

Lavrov to a western journo we have witnessed Ukrainian civilians in the streets of Butca laying dead on the roads lavrov's answer they were actors placed in that position. and you believe this crap Haw-Haw why don't you walk away now with your mate Tiger your both just trolls and winding up merchants for all to see on this forum.

[dbrenn]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Absolutely not. You are perfectly free to post your pro Putin propaganda and others are free to challenge it. 

The fact you are defending the indefensible is probably why you are having problems.

Glad you said that. But I find fault with both Zelensky and Putin. Is that allowed here, or does one have to occupy one or the other of two polar opposites?

[Rookiescot]

Just now, dbrenn said:

Glad you said that. But I find fault with both Zelensky and Putin. Is that allowed here, or does one have to occupy one or the other of two polar opposites?

Not at all. I do recommend you back your opinions and views with credible links though.

[dbrenn]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Not at all. I do recommend you back your opinions and views with credible links though.

Aren't we allowed to have our own opinions, or do we always have to post links showing opinions of others instead of our own?

That's a rather strange request, and I don't see anyone else doing it all that much anyway, so why just me?

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

Aren't we allowed to have our own opinions, or do we always have to post links showing opinions of others instead of our own?

That's a rather strange request, and I don't see anyone else doing it all that much anyway, so why just me?

Believe me mate it saves a lot of time and grief. The mods are also quite keen on it because it tends to stop threads turning into flame fests. Not all posts require a link. If you make a link then a debate starts because of it then you dont need to keep repeating the link.

You will also see posts reminding others of their previously stated positions. As you post more you will get to remember these. Again those tend not to have links because they have already been discussed at some length. This is what you are seeing on here right now.