News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Tigermask]

6 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

I just don't get it. Russia is apparantly losing and losing and losing. Ukrainean army is soon in Jekatrinaburg and Putin has stage 6 "blood cancer". 

And Parkinson's.

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[NorskTiger]

On 5/21/2022 at 9:39 AM, vlad said:

So after over 2 Months of continually shelling and Bombardment from Russian forces the last fighters of the Azovstal Steel plant have surrendered to Russian forces. A victory claimed by Russia this is what liberation means in Russia completely flatten a city making it unhabitable kill thousands your supposed to be liberating and then celebrate a victory well done.

Replace 2 months with 1 year: Russia with USA and  azovstal steel with Mosul gives us a pretty interesting comparison over two quite recent events and the viewpoints in it. 

[Tigermask]

17 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Dr Twitter is sending a guaranteed not-manipulated picture here. 

    You guys don't quit..

I broadly agree with you. Unless America and Europe get directly involved, which won't happen, then it can only end with a big chunk of the country going to Russia. But you're deluded if you think Putin is in tip top shape. 

[NorskTiger]

57 minutes ago, Tigermask said:

I broadly agree with you. Unless America and Europe get directly involved, which won't happen, then it can only end with a big chunk of the country going to Russia. But you're deluded if you think Putin is in tip top shape. 

I don't have any grounds to believe he is in a "poor shape", but the decadent West is of course trying to personalize everything and simplify this to one man as always. 

     I wonder how many Ukraineans think this entire ordeal was worth it. All they woulåd have had to do is say stay clear of the EU suicide train. Sounds like a good idea to me. 

     

[Fanta]

That is 4 leaders in the last few weeks that  have called for peace talks. Hungary, Italy, France & Germany. Sleepy Joe is not pleased as shown in his dummy spit yesterday where he repeated Zelenskyy’s claims of Russian genocide.

“The leaders of France and Germany have urged Russia's Vladimir Putin to hold "direct [and] serious negotiations" with Ukraine's president, the German chancellor's office said.”

“The pair "insisted on an immediate ceasefire and a withdrawal of Russian troops," the chancellor's office said.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61618907

 

[EdwardV]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

That is 4 leaders in the last few weeks that  have called for peace talks. Hungary, Italy, France & Germany.

Except that Germany has also said peace terms will not be dictated to Ukraine. Typical of the Germans but also means them calling for peace is meaningless. Putin will not have terms dictate to him anymore than Ukraine. France? No one cares what they say. Italy’s plan has been laughed at by Russia. And everyone knows Hungary is Russia’s stooge.

More importantly the UK, USA, Poland , all three Baltic States and Romania call for the destruction of the Russian army first. As long as Russia doesn’t break Germany from NATO, this plan will prevail. As long as ….

[Fanta]

33 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

More importantly the UK, USA, Poland , all three Baltic States and Romania call for the destruction of the Russian army first. As long as Russia doesn’t break Germany from NATO, this plan will prevail. As long as ….

To the last Ukrainian!  These “supporters” either don’t see or don’t care how damaging this is to Ukraine. I previously dismissed oldschooler’s claims that this was a NATO trap to destroy Russia because I was, and am, quite ignorant about the politics but mainly because I thought it was a monstrous idea to sacrifice tens of thousands Ukrainian lives towards this NATO goal. No wonder Zelenskky is bleating like a sacrificial lamb tied to the stake to lure the lion in for the kill. And this is not a proxy war? And my ex girlfriend the hardcore bar girl is different…. 

[NorskTiger]

1 hour ago, Transam said:

The war is about one man.....

So why don't you think that this one man has a medical problem..?

A link would be nice.....

You are asking for a link about "my thoughts"?

    ?????

   Do you have "a link" that this is about one man?

   What is this?  A simpleton show?

   

 

One side always wants to personalize a conflict. Typically the one who has less than sincere dealings with it, IMHO. In this day and age of media monolithism in the West, information flow is a racket in that part of world. 

   

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Except that Germany has also said peace terms will not be dictated to Ukraine. Typical of the Germans but also means them calling for peace is meaningless. Putin will not have terms dictate to him anymore than Ukraine. France? No one cares what they say. Italy’s plan has been laughed at by Russia. And everyone knows Hungary is Russia’s stooge.

More importantly the UK, USA, Poland , all three Baltic States and Romania call for the destruction of the Russian army first. As long as Russia doesn’t break Germany from NATO, this plan will prevail. As long as ….

Yes. Unrealistic Calls for some false “peace” in face of this evil murdering regime, who clearly respect only Strength & Force, are coming only from disgraceful handwringing vote-fishing “ neutral” politicians and other cowards, fools, appeasers & apologists

PUTIN must be defeated or reduced further or withdraw for any remotely possible “peace” to follow.HIS Call Only ! Nobody Else Responsible for War or Peace hereUkraine/ Zelensky clearly understands this & THEIR wishes must be Respected here. 

Non-Putin Peace activity would only encourage Russia to press on and commit further Crimes.

Strength & Force is all barbaric Russia has ever understood, especially Communistic KGB butchers like Putin who no doubt sees himself as the modern heir to his adored Stalin.

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Yes. Unrealistic Calls for some false “peace” in face of this evil murdering regime, who clearly respect only Strength & Force, are coming only from disgraceful handwringing vote-fishing “ neutral” politicians and other cowards, fools, appeasers & apologists

PUTIN must be defeated or reduced further or withdraw for any remotely possible “peace” to follow.HIS Call Only ! Nobody Else Responsible for War or Peace hereUkraine/ Zelensky clearly understands this & THEIR wishes must be Respected here. 

Non-Putin Peace activity would only encourage Russia to press on and commit further Crimes.

Strength & Force is all barbaric Russia has ever understood, especially Communistic KGB butchers like Putin who no doubt sees himself as the modern heir to his adored Stalin.

And who is going to do it? The Ukrainian armed forces that have already lost most of the south and the east already? The army that is currently being pushed backwards on the east and losing ground daily? The new conscripts with a few months of training? The virtually non existent air force? The heavy weapons? At best the heavy weapons will slow the Russian advance however they will also attract a lot of attention from the Russian Air Force and are not a game changer. 

[vlad]

27 minutes ago, Transam said:

Aaaah, the old avoid the question ploy.....But, I will make it very "simple" for you to understand...

One man war, yes it is Putin's war, Ukraine don't want it, the Russians don't want it, the Russians cannot speak out about it, because Putin's underlying communist ideals, control and will deal with dissenters...

"The West", well, I will take that as you are of the same ilk as Putin, even a communist maybe,  you seem to have a problem with the West, does your Norway come under your West flag, that is if you are actually from Norway..?

Lets be honest Norsk Tiger would be standing on the Border welcoming anyone who decides to invade his country like in the past. They don't have a backbone for a scrap so will just be the carrot for the Donkey.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

And who is going to do it? The Ukrainian armed forces that have already lost most of the south and the east already? The army that is currently being pushed backwards on the east and losing ground daily? The new conscripts with a few months of training? The virtually non existent air force? The heavy weapons? At best the heavy weapons will slow the Russian advance however they will also attract a lot of attention from the Russian Air Force and are not a game changer. 

 I think you mean pushed back to the west? The Russians have numerical advantage now in local areas of the Donbass, after redeploying units from their failures near Kiev and Kharkiv, where they have given as much ground back than they have taken recently.

It would certainly be interesting to see if the Russian air force has the nuts to show itself but I doubt it. Those extra heavy weapons will be covered by new and better anti-air missiles. 

[Alavan]

16 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Yes, Russia has never had a history of Rommel Blitzkrieg, but it DOES have a history of inevitable victory.

1905

Tsushima...

[EdwardV]

9 hours ago, Fanta said:

To the last Ukrainian!  These “supporters” either don’t see or don’t care how damaging this is to Ukraine.

I love when people throw out that comment liken it’s grounded in any kind of reality. Besides the fact it was Russia who started this war and it’s Russia who continues this war. Keeping in mind Ukraine could stop this war tomorrow if they wished and the west couldn’t stop them. Of course all they have to do is give Russia everything they want and live in subjugation. It’s Ukraine who keeps demanding more and more weapons. It’s Ukraine who wants to fight for their land and freedom. Stop pretending the west started, or is forcing this war to continue because it’s not the case. Russia got themselves into this war, only problem is they can’t get themselves out of it with an intact army. I’ve said since day one, this will be the Russian army’s last war. They will die on the Ukrainian countryside. 

[Thaidup]

On 5/3/2022 at 10:30 PM, oldschooler said:

Well since you asked, I’ll give you a clue, the culture than invented Modern Science , Medicine , Industry, Banking, Steam Power, Metal Ships, Submarines, Railways, Steels & Alloys, , Computers, Jet Engines, Motor Engines & Vehicles, Internet, Spacecraft, Tv, Radio, Radar, Satellites, Orbiting Telescopes, Nuclear Power, Electrical Power, Refrigeration, Air Conditioning, Aircraft, Democracy, Classical Music ; I could go on.

Or you could go with other cultures than invented Reggae, Tequila, Curry, Korans or Boomerang or useful Ancient stuff but never progressed. 

Of course I would always prefer to judge individuals based on merit not origin. 

Interesting subject

Here is CNN latest reporting, Not much.(in my opinion)

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-05-29-22/index.html

I don't get it, Here they report.

Zelensky defiant: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in his nightly address on Saturday that his country will "take everything back" from Russia. "This is an imperative," Zelensky said, "And it's just a matter of time. Every day at this same time, the time until liberation grows shorter. Everything we do is for this." However, he acknowledged that the situation in the Donbas remains difficult, especially in the areas of Severodonetsk, Lysychansk, Bakhmut and Popasna.

But last week they reported.

Washington (CNN)Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Sunday that he's "ready for negotiations" with Russian President Vladimir Putin but warned that if they fail "that would mean that this is a third World Wa

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/20/politics/zelensky-putin-ukraine-negotiations-war-cnntv/index.html

[EdwardV]

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

already lost most of the south and the east already?

Most as meaning anything more than 50%. Don’t look now but Ukraine is driving the Russians back in the south as we speak. 

 

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

At best the heavy weapons will slow the Russian advance however they will also attract a lot of attention from the Russian Air Force and are not a game changer. 

Hope is a wonderful thing isn’t it. The Russian Air Force has proven itself a paper tiger. The Ukrainian soldiers already slowed and in many places stopped the Russian advance without western heavy weapons. Western heavy weapons will turn the tide and have already started to do so in the north and south. Keeping in mind they haven’t even entered the theater in large numbers yet. 

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

I love when people throw out that comment liken it’s grounded in any kind of reality. Besides the fact it was Russia who started this war and it’s Russia who continues this war. Keeping in mind Ukraine could stop this war tomorrow if they wished and the west couldn’t stop them. Of course all they have to do is give Russia everything they want and live in subjugation. It’s Ukraine who keeps demanding more and more weapons. It’s Ukraine who wants to fight for their land and freedom. Stop pretending the west started, or is forcing this war to continue because it’s not the case. Russia got themselves into this war, only problem is they can’t get themselves out of it with an intact army. I’ve said since day one, this will be the Russian army’s last war. They will die on the Ukrainian countryside. 

Ukraine is outnumbered and outgunned. That is a fact. Ukraine can fight to the death or elect to negotiate for a peace that is protected by security guarantees, rebuild their economy, improve their military, get an Air Force and come back at a later date to retake their lands. imo, Ukraine’s present course of action is the road to ruin. The desire to break Russia militarily is not grounded in reality unless the Russians choose to break themselves. Before their losses become too much the Russians can call it a day, as in Afghanistan, retreat back across their borders and play their nuke game. I ignore the wins and losses claimed by both sides and look at the map and it doesn’t look good for Ukraine. The actions taken by Russia if the Donbas region falls  will decide the extent of this war inside Ukraine. 

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Hope is a wonderful thing isn’t it. The Russian Air Force has proven itself a paper tiger. The Ukrainian soldiers already slowed and in many places stopped the Russian advance without western heavy weapons. Western heavy weapons will turn the tide and have already started to do so in the north and south. Keeping in mind they haven’t even entered the theater in large numbers yet

I hope you are right. 

[oldschooler]

10 hours ago, Fanta said:

To the last Ukrainian!  These “supporters” either don’t see or don’t care how damaging this is to Ukraine. I previously dismissed oldschooler’s claims that this was a NATO trap to destroy Russia because I was, and am, quite ignorant about the politics but mainly because I thought it was a monstrous idea to sacrifice tens of thousands Ukrainian lives towards this NATO goal. No wonder Zelenskky is bleating like a sacrificial lamb tied to the stake to lure the lion in for the kill. And this is not a proxy war? And my ex girlfriend the hardcore bar girl is different…. 

Ukraine was always inevitably going to get Wrecked by Putins Russia. NATO simply exploited that. Ukraine knew all that and accepted better only Wrecked , with NATO Aid, than Defeated, Occupied, Enslaved AND Wrecked.

Ukraine / Zelensky said they’ve been heavily preparing for this invasion a full year before it started. “operation Orbita” has had NATO & Ukraine working hard together to form the NATO - level Ukraine Army we see now. 

[oldschooler]

40 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Ukraine is outnumbered and outgunned. That is a fact. Ukraine can fight to the death or elect to negotiate for a peace that is protected by security guarantees, rebuild their economy, improve their military, get an Air Force and come back at a later date to retake their lands. imo, Ukraine’s present course of action is the road to ruin. The desire to break Russia militarily is not grounded in reality unless the Russians choose to break themselves. Before their losses become too much the Russians can call it a day, as in Afghanistan, retreat back across their borders and play their nuke game. I ignore the wins and losses claimed by both sides and look at the map and it doesn’t look good for Ukraine. The actions taken by Russia if the Donbas region falls  will decide the extent of this war inside Ukraine. 

Not outgunned when those Howitzers arrive Donbass next week in numbers. Numbers of Russian troops count for very little as quality / morale rock bottom. 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Ukraine is outnumbered and outgunned. That is a fact. Ukraine can fight to the death or elect to negotiate for a peace that is protected by security guarantees, rebuild their economy, improve their military, get an Air Force and come back at a later date to retake their lands. imo,

Problem is it’s actually Russia that’s outnumbered. Ukraine is outgunned at the present time, but they vastly outnumber Russia inside Ukraine. What Russia can do is outnumber Ukraine at the point of attack. You see this in the Donbas. However that usually applies to any attacker as they have the luxury of focusing forces while a defender can’t. 
 

The idea the two sides can come to a peace deal is folly at the present time. Besides the fact there is no reason to believe Putin either wants a peace deal or can even be trusted to negotiate in good faith. The bigger problem is Russia will demand a peace deal on their terms and Ukraine can’t and won’t accept that. They know, as you correctly point out, any peace deal is transitory and will have a built in end date. At which point Russia will attack again. Russia isn’t going to let Ukraine build a modern army and Air Force in any deal. And even if they did, the coalition behind them will quickly fade away when the shooting stops. A peace deal at this time is a come line bet at best for Ukraine to improve their future. 
 

As long as Russia is crazy enough to remain at basically a peace time army level. Ukraine is better off trading land for time and continue the war while they get the necessary heavy weapons to roll Russia back. Russian force levels are so low they are forced into a bite and hold strategy. Where they take small bites and hold while they get ready to take another bite. It’s a very slow process and one that plays into Ukraine’s needs for time. 

[NorskTiger]

8 hours ago, Transam said:

Aaaah, the old avoid the question ploy.....But, I will make it very "simple" for you to understand...

One man war, yes it is Putin's war, Ukraine don't want it, the Russians don't want it, the Russians cannot speak out about it, because Putin's underlying communist ideals, control and will deal with dissenters...

"The West", well, I will take that as you are of the same ilk as Putin, even a communist maybe,  you seem to have a problem with the West, does your Norway come under your West flag, that is if you are actually from Norway..?

To take me first. Whether or not I am "communist" is not an issue with regards to the factual issues at hand. Having said that, are you saying Russia in 2022 is communist? 

   With regards to Norway, we belong in the NORDIC region and not the West. The latter is merely a political connotation. Norway has voted no to the European Union twice, it is only a very late invention that we have foreign troops based in our country. It was long a policy in all Nordic nations to have a nuclear-free zone, something that has been broken through executive decisions. 

 

  To take Putin, do you think HE wants war? Nobody ever does. Hovever, that is different from supporting a cause at the moment. You are saying Russians "don't want war", which is probably true. Even Hitler did not want a war in 1939 and when Ribbentropp told him UK had declared one, his (translated" response was "Now, what"!? I would love to hear you describe which "communist ideals" Putin is touting. Is it the flat tax in Russia? Is it the favoring of state religion? Is it the family friendly policies, or is it the support of regionalism. 

    There is much to critizize Russia for (and I have done so, even if people like you try to say otherwise), but only an ignorant fool (hint hint) presents this conflict as a one-sided scenario where the "freedom-loving West" are the good people and Russia/Putin is all bad. 

    When it comes to freedom of speech and protection of journalists, who talk about war crimes, I believe Julian Assange would find it less than optimum in the West. 

   

     

  

[NorskTiger]

8 hours ago, vlad said:

Lets be honest Norsk Tiger would be standing on the Border welcoming anyone who decides to invade his country like in the past. They don't have a backbone for a scrap so will just be the carrot for the Donkey.

What do you mean by "like in the past" and how do you see that I would welcome anyone into my country?

   I don't want Russians, Americans, Brits or Italians in our lands and the majority of people in Norway does NOT want foreign troops here. 

        This is not OUR war. It is not OUR conflict and it definitely in not in OUR interest to supply EU with energy to keep the war going. 

         Whether or not Russia invaded is not any of my business. They are not the first power to invade someone as of modern times. The difference is that when Russia does something "The West" takes a side on other side. When US invades someone, the West stays mum and the journalists are simply "embedded" with the troops. 

    We are not in a bar chatting, so feel free to throw taunts at me all you want to. It is up to others to decided whether this crosses the line or not. I simply would like you to back up what you are saying, but don't expect you to. After all, you have no reason behind what you say, just bile and vitriole. 

 

[NorskTiger]

55 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Problem is it’s actually Russia that’s outnumbered. Ukraine is outgunned at the present time, but they vastly outnumber Russia inside Ukraine. What Russia can do is outnumber Ukraine at the point of attack. You see this in the Donbas. However that usually applies to any attacker as they have the luxury of focusing forces while a defender can’t. 
 

The idea the two sides can come to a peace deal is folly at the present time. Besides the fact there is no reason to believe Putin either wants a peace deal or can even be trusted to negotiate in good faith. The bigger problem is Russia will demand a peace deal on their terms and Ukraine can’t and won’t accept that. They know, as you correctly point out, any peace deal is transitory and will have a built in end date. At which point Russia will attack again. Russia isn’t going to let Ukraine build a modern army and Air Force in any deal. And even if they did, the coalition behind them will quickly fade away when the shooting stops. A peace deal at this time is a come line bet at best for Ukraine to improve their future. 
 

As long as Russia is crazy enough to remain at basically a peace time army level. Ukraine is better off trading land for time and continue the war while they get the necessary heavy weapons to roll Russia back. Russian force levels are so low they are forced into a bite and hold strategy. Where they take small bites and hold while they get ready to take another bite. It’s a very slow process and one that plays into Ukraine’s needs for time. 

   This is partly correct. Russian army has been smaller than Ukraines from day one. This is also best evidence that a war of conquest was never planned. For comparison. USA outnumbered Iraq in all Gulf conflicts AND had superior arms. 

      Russia will continue to use stand-off weapons at increased intensity, while using cracked units to secure gains from destroyed areas. The West has no counter to this, besides "sanctions" (which are not working) and giving Ukraineans more weapons and letting them die despite that. 

     There is little to no strategic evidence that Russia has lost even an iota of the initiative. Of course, Ukraine will be able to launch nimble tactical countertrusts, but with no bearing upon course of war. Germans even launched local counterstrikes in Berlin to end of April-1945. 

 

      We all shall see what happens. In the meantime, there is no need to try convincing each other, because this is war, nothing but an extension of politics. We already disagree on the politics, so any change in warview is unlikely.  

   Can Ukraine continue to hurt Russian military, yes. Do they have a chance to win? no.

 

 

 

[NorskTiger]

6 hours ago, Alavan said:

1905

Tsushima...

This was a RommelEsque Blitzkrieg?