News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

Not real big on them eh? I went off them after that cinema hostage thing in Moscow. In my book there are limits to expressing resistance. 

Russia should have just let them go independent in 91. Like all other Muslim stans….. 

[Fester]

29 minutes ago, IneptoCracy said:

Fanta you are correct and even dolphins can be trained to lay mines.

https://www.forces.net/news/dolphins-defence-how-military-uses-marine-mammals

Fail. Read your own link. Dolphins can be trained to locate mines - not lay them.

Russia keeps some near Crimea. Fanta is incorrect yet again so also gets an F and remains The Weakest Link.

Goodbye.

 

[Fanta]

 

“Russia’s defence ministry said 771 Ukrainian fighters from the Azovstal steelworks in Mariupol had surrendered in the last 24 hours, taking the total to 1,730, RIA reported on Thursday. The ministry said 80 of the fighters were wounded.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/19/russia-ukraine-war-list-of-key-events-day-85

“Ukrainian officials have estimated that about 2,000 of their troops are inside the plant along with the civilians sheltering in the facility's underground tunnels. Arestovic said the Ukrainian forces were trying to counter the new attacks”

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/23/1094471660/ukraine-russia-mariupol-steel-plant

That was in April. I assume Arestovic refers to the Ukrainian presidential advisor of the same name.

Apparently there are some senior level Avoz guys still underground. So it seems as if the Russians may not be lying after all. Ukraine remains silent on the numbers in this “special evacuation”.

 

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

The Russians must be lulling them into a false sense of security by providing food, medical care, evacuation and the necessities of life. Why they don’t just string up the barbed wire and leave them to eat the grass or worse is beyond me. 
EDIT: the last sentence contains a hefty dose of sarcasm. 

Who took away their food, medical care and necessities of life? Why do they need evacuation?

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, Fester said:

Fanta is incorrect yet again

A frigate is not a ship? And you quoted me out of context as I didn’t claim that the frigate was used for deploying mines. Your posts are a consistent waste of space and will be ignored. 

[birdman]

33 minutes ago, Fester said:

Fail. Read your own link. Dolphins can be trained to locate mines - not lay them

Dolphins also have been trained to place mines on the hull of ships,the mines can be

activated by either remote or timers.

[Fester]

19 minutes ago, Fanta said:

A frigate is not a ship? And you quoted me out of context as I didn’t claim that the frigate was used for deploying mines. Your posts are a consistent waste of space and will be ignored. 

I'm sorry if I embarrassed you. 

[Fester]

5 minutes ago, birdman said:

Dolphins also have been trained to place mines on the hull of ships,the mines can be

activated by either remote or timers.

Different type of mine completely. Fly away Peter (or Paul).

[Marble-eye]

6 minutes ago, birdman said:

Dolphins also have been trained to place mines on the hull of ships,the mines can be

activated by either remote or timers.

Are you spreading disinformation on porpoise?

[Chatogaster]

35 minutes ago, Fester said:

Fail. Read your own link. Dolphins can be trained to locate mines - not lay them.

Russia keeps some near Crimea. Fanta is incorrect yet again so also gets an F and remains The Weakest Link.

Goodbye.

 

When I read your comment, my first impression was surprise: if they can be trained to detect explosives, training them to plant explosives is the obvious next (or previous) step. Surely they can (and have been used to) do both?

My first attempt (the only one needed) was opening the link you re-used to suggest that IneptoCracy didn't read it, by claiming it contains a proof that dolphins cannot be trained to lay explosives. It contains the sentence "Baranets says Soviet combat dolphins were trained to plant explosives on enemy vessels and could detect abandoned torpedoes and sunken ships in the Black Sea.".

I wouldn't call that proof that dolphins can do both (after all, it's just one source in which somebody says something), but it is proof that your disproof is incorrect. 

If you're serious about (dis)proving something, have the decency to be a bit more thorough and at the very least fully read your referenced source(s). Attempts like this (yours is not unique, sigh...) are pitiful.
 

 

[EdwardV]

Seems Ukraine isn’t the only one sacking generals: 

Moscow over recent weeks has fired senior military commanders for failures in Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The U.K. Ministry of Defence pointed to Lt. Gen. Serhiy Kisel, whose forces failed to capture Ukraine's second-biggest city, Kharkiv. Also suspended was Vice Admiral Igor Osipov, who commanded the Black Sea Fleet until its flagship, the Moskva, was sunk in April. Valeriy Gerasimov, Russian Chief of the General Staff, "likely remains in his post," but it's unclear whether President Vladimir Putin retains confidence in him.

In an intelligence update, the British ministry predicted that Russia will face difficulty regaining the initiative in its war against Ukraine, because generals and other officials will want to seek cover by deferring to their superiors on key decisions. "Many officials involved in the invasion of Ukraine will likely be increasingly distracted by efforts to avoid personal culpability for Russia's operational setbacks," the Ministry of Defence said.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/05/19/russia-ukraine-live-updates.html

Of course the main difference is Russia runs their military in a top down decision model. It’s hard enough getting decisions out of mid level officers. It’s why so many colonels are dying, no one below them wants to make a decision. Therefore they are forced to the front. This just makes it worse. 

[birdman]

39 minutes ago, Fester said:

Different type of mine completely. Fly away Peter (or Paul).

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/non-human-troops-amp-spies-birds-and-animals-deployed-for-military-missions/a-beluga-russian-spy/slideshow/69183627.cms

Here you go Mary.

[Fanta]

1 minute ago, EdwardV said:

Seems Ukraine isn’t the only one sacking generals

These guys must have breathed a sigh of relief at not being sent to the Ukrainian front because that’s a death sentence for Russian generals.

[birdman]

41 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Are you spreading disinformation on porpoise?

What disinformation?

[Fester]

26 minutes ago, Chatogaster said:

When I read your comment, my first impression was surprise: if they can be trained to detect explosives, training them to plant explosives is the obvious next (or previous) step. Surely they can (and have been used to) do both?

My first attempt (the only one needed) was opening the link you re-used to suggest that IneptoCracy didn't read it, by claiming it contains a proof that dolphins cannot be trained to lay explosives. It contains the sentence "Baranets says Soviet combat dolphins were trained to plant explosives on enemy vessels and could detect abandoned torpedoes and sunken ships in the Black Sea.".

I wouldn't call that proof that dolphins can do both (after all, it's just one source in which somebody says something), but it is proof that your disproof is incorrect. 

If you're serious about (dis)proving something, have the decency to be a bit more thorough and at the very least fully read your referenced source(s). Attempts like this (yours is not unique, sigh...) are pitiful.
 

Fanta first introduced the subject of mines (and particularly mine clearance). Mine clearance is a term commonly associated with naval mines - which can weigh more than a ton and so be rather difficult for even Flipper to manage on his own - usually located, collected and dealt with by minesweepers/minehunters.

Dolphins have been used to locate naval mines and other hazards. They can also be trained to place small magnetic (limpet) mines on the hulls of ships but these attach well and rarely break free and drift around on the tides currents like the big ones do. Explosives in the sea are not necessarily mines. 

 

[Fester]

25 minutes ago, birdman said:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/non-human-troops-amp-spies-birds-and-animals-deployed-for-military-missions/a-beluga-russian-spy/slideshow/69183627.cms

Here you go Mary.

No mention of 1000kg mines being cleared in there. But Haw Haw loved it of course.

[IneptoCracy]

OK those that have not served, a little home truth here. Dolphins are excellent at planting mines on ship hulls and have been used to plant Limpit mines onto the hulls of ships. Have a good look at a Russian limpet mine please before answering and note that the pad is one big magnet or eight smaller magnets...

https://cat-uxo.com/explosive-hazards/landmines/upm-limpet-Bakelitemine

These were placed into bakelite cups on the dolphin's back, they would swim under a ship and arch their back. How do I know, I served in IED/EOD.

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, Fester said:

Fanta first introduced the subject of mines (and particularly mine clearance)

Wrong. The discussion was about who deployed the sea mines, not their removal. 

[Fester]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Wrong. The discussion was about who deployed the sea mines, not their removal. 

Your post 209998 is served. Enjoy.

The UN dude was saying the he intends to get sales of Russian and Ukrainian agricultural products back on track so I doubt that Black Sea will be the scene of a naval battle. Clear out all those mines (that Ukraine absolutely positively didn’t lay there 555) out of the ports, give Russia a few megayachts or similar back and the foodstuffs will flow. 

[Chatogaster]

24 minutes ago, Fester said:

Fanta first introduced the subject of mines (and particularly mine clearance). Mine clearance is a term commonly associated with naval mines - which can weigh more than a ton and so be rather difficult for even Flipper to manage on his own - usually located, collected and dealt with by minesweepers/minehunters.

Dolphins have been used to locate naval mines and other hazards. They can also be trained to place small magnetic (limpet) mines on the hulls of ships but these attach well and rarely break free and drift around on the tides currents like the big ones do. Explosives in the sea are not necessarily mines. 

 

You're missing the point (it's a bit meta so I don't blame you).

It's not about dolphins, nationalities, explosives (in all their variations) etc., but about how the "truth" can be determined, especially the validity of logical chains.

I showed in my post that you tried to disprove a claim by providing a single reference that not only doesn't support the anti-claim, it even supports the claim.

That's not the way to go.
 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Chatogaster
anti-claim <--> claim

[Fanta]

Finland and Sweden’s Prime Ministers have both said that permanent NATO bases and nukes on their territories are not welcome.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/19/finland-against-hosting-nuclear-weapons-nato-military-bases-pm

That might explain why Putin chilled on his “NATO= nuke for you!” stance. As well as the realization that threats with nukes are seen as an empty threat, especially when you have never fired one in anger. Kim Dim Sim should take note - hopefully Covid will take out that bulbous, blustering buffoon.

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, Fester said:

Your post 209998 is served. Enjoy.

And you choose to ignore the 10 following posts discussing the subject of who laid the sea mines including the post you actually replied to. Picking one sentence out of 50 in an attempt to save face is an insult to anyone that can follow a conversation. I should never have replied to you as it always goes like this -  a waste of time as you attempt to prove an irrelevant point.

[Fester]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And you choose to ignore the 10 following posts discussing the subject of who laid the sea mines including the post you actually replied to. Picking one sentence out of 50 in an attempt to save face is an insult to anyone that can follow a conversation. I should never have replied to you as it always goes like this -  a waste of time as you attempt to prove an irrelevant point.

So you acknowledge that you said sea mines, well that's a start and entirely relevant. It always goes like this because you spout off not knowing anything about a topic and then find yourself scrambling for a way out in vain attempts to save your own face.

[Fester]

29 minutes ago, Chatogaster said:

You're missing the point (it's a bit meta so I don't blame you).

It's not about dolphins, nationalities, explosives (in all their variations) etc., but about how the "truth" can be determined, especially the validity of logical chains.

I showed in my post that you tried to disprove a claim by providing a single reference that not only doesn't support the anti-claim, it even supports the claim.

That's not the way to go.
 

I might be missing your point, that's for sure. What was it again?

[EdwardV]

33 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Finland and Sweden’s Prime Ministers have both said that permanent NATO bases and nukes on their territories are not welcome.

Well to be fair, that’s the case with all the new members since the fall of the USSR. None of them have permanent bases and of course no nukes. 

The Baltic states have been begging for permanent basing for years. Two months ago, Poland asked for a permanent base and even asked for the US to station nukes. It’s highly doubtful they get nukes, it requires so much more than just a permanent base. Biden isn’t going to go for that. Still it’s almost a done deal they will get a permanent base but only with a rotating troop deployment (to be fair a distinction without a difference). 
 

Ironically Poland wouldn’t be getting even that had not been for Putin invading Ukraine.