News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Fanta]

15 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Wrong again. What has that got to do with my post?

The claim was made that "under the Geneva convention civilians must be evacuated".

Who is being the troll now? Or is it clown? Ever tried this website? It’s free. 
https://www.google.com

Article 58(a) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I states that the parties to the conflict shall, to the maximum extent feasible, “without prejudice to Article 49 of the Fourth Convention, endeavour to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule24

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Who is being the troll now? Or is it clown? Ever tried this website? It’s free. https://www.google.com

Article 58(a) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I states that the parties to the conflict shall, to the maximum extent feasible, “without prejudice to Article 49 of the Fourth Convention, endeavour to remove the civilian population, individual civilians and civilian objects under their control from the vicinity of military objectives.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule24

How many Ukrainians have fled their homes and where have they gone? - BBC News

11 million displaced Ukrainians. Seems like they have been trying to protect their civilians.

However given Russia has been stopping evacuations and indeed even shelling evacuation routes it has not been easy.

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You and the other Czar Putin appologists have been making claims that the civilians were being held against their will.

Will you now admit this position was wrong?

Ask Zelenskyy who refused numerous ultimatums to surrender at Mariupol or maybe his Neo Nazi commander there who didn’t force the civilians outside with a white flag. Even your cheer squad couldn’t come up with a plausible explanation for why civilians were down there for months with soldiers. The only reason the Russians haven’t turned the steelworks into a slag pit or a water reservoir was because the civilians were trapped down there. Human shields is such a provocative term. 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Nancy Pelosi was there to scold some people the other day. Even Angelina Jolie went there for some orphan shopping.

Dog and pony show with Pelosi. Angelina has too many already, I think they banned her in SE Asia or was it Africa hahaha. 

[EdwardV]

38 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I have a funny feeling that group doesn’t include many males between the ages of 18-50

Better to die with your boots on. 

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

However given Russia has been stopping evacuations and indeed even shelling evacuation routes it has not been easy

So you accept that the Geneva Conventions apply to evacuation of civilians after being spoon fed the info yet again. You’re welcome 
Do you still stick to the MSM claims that 1+ million refugees that fled to Russia have all been forcibly moved? 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

Ask Zelenskyy who refused numerous ultimatums to surrender at Mariupol or maybe his Neo Nazi commander there who didn’t force the civilians outside with a white flag. Even your cheer squad couldn’t come up with a plausible explanation for why civilians were down there for months with soldiers. The only reason the Russians haven’t turned the steelworks into a slag pit or a water reservoir was because the civilians were trapped down there. Human shields is such a provocative term. 

Its obvious why civilians were seeking shelter in those tunnels. It was to get protection from Czar Putins shells and missiles.

So now the soldiers are allowing the civilians to leave because they no longer need their human shield of captives? They suddenly decided not to hold them against their will any more.

Yeah right. They were never being held against their will in the first place.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

So you accept that the Geneva Conventions apply to evacuation of civilians after being spoon fed the info yet again. You’re welcome 
Do you still stick to the MSM claims that 1+ million refugees that fled to Russia have all been forcibly moved? 

Someone made a claim. Along with many other claims. I asked them to provide evidence.

I have no idea where the refugees are in Russia. And neither do you. 

[Fanta]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

Its obvious why civilians were seeking shelter in those tunnels. It was to get protection from Czar Putins shells and missiles.

So now the soldiers are allowing the civilians to leave because they no longer need their human shield of captives? They suddenly decided not to hold them against their will any more.

Yeah right. They were never being held against their will in the first place.

There are many ways to bend someone to your will. Fear is a powerful motivator and combined with sprinkle of hope involving a farcical story that the cavalry are on the way reinforces the message that sitting tight is the “right” thing to do.  No comment on the white flag option? 

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Fanta said:

There are many ways to bend someone to your will. Fear is a powerful motivator and combined with sprinkle of hope involving a farcical story that the cavalry are on the way reinforces the message that sitting tight is the “right” thing to do.  No comment on the white flag option? 

Surrender just to be tortured and executed by the neo nazi Wagner group?

 

[Fanta]

9 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Someone made a claim. Along with many other claims. I asked them to provide evidence.

You should really check out that website https://www.google.com Asking people to provide basic data that you can go fetch yourself in less time than it takes to ask the question could make you look lazy or ignorant or argumentative and we wouldn’t want that. 
The civilians are safe now and that is all that matters for the moment. 

[Fanta]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Surrender just to be tortured and executed by the neo nazi Wagner group?

So now you believe that the civilians would be tortured and executed by the Russians? Because that is who we were talking about. The civilians. 

[EdwardV]

For all the millions he's reaching, even with half rations, Beasley is most worried about those who are likely starving in Russian-occupied Ukraine. He is personally negotiating with Russia for access. “I have written. I have called. I know the United Nations' doing everything it can in general to give us the access because we are impartial. We're neutral," Beasley told Pelley. "And all we're asking is, 'Give us the access to reach the innocent victims of this war.'" "But it is in the Russians' interest to starve those people out," Pelley said. “Well," Beasley responded, "Sure would appear so, wouldn't it?" And food is now a weapon in the war. A restaurant cooking for the disaster relief organization, World Central Kitchen, was hit in an airstrike, wounding four.  

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ukraine-world-food-shortage-60-minutes-2022-05-01/

As interesting as that part was, this was even more so: 

"It's a humanitarian need, the world demands it, we have to have those ports open, we have to." "You seem to be suggesting that NATO warships would have to come into the Black Sea to secure the shipping out of the port," Pelley said. "I'm a humanitarian guy but it isn't complicated.

That’s not the first time I’ve heard the idea of forcing open the Russian blockade for humanitarian reasons. Just saying. 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

You should really check out that website https://www.google.com Asking people to provide basic data that you can go fetch yourself in less time than it takes to ask the question could make you look lazy or ignorant or argumentative and we wouldn’t want that. 

So when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim its my job to go look for evidence to support it?

What happens when they are making multiple claims? What happens when all the Czar Putin apologists are making baseless claims at the same time? 

I am supposed to spend my entire time checking the veracity of other peoples nonsense?

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So now you believe that the civilians would be tortured and executed by the Russians? Because that is who we were talking about. The civilians. 

Probably not the civilians although many will get raped no doubt.

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim its my job to go look for evidence to support it?

What happens when they are making multiple claims? What happens when all the Czar Putin apologists are making baseless claims at the same time? 

I am supposed to spend my entire time checking the veracity of other peoples nonsense?

The issue is that you appear to believe that anything written by people that have a different point of view to you is nonsense. Demanding links to support every single statement can be seen as a refusal to listen to others or application of a key point learned from “Plausible Deniability for Dummies.”

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That’s not the first time I’ve heard the idea of forcing open the Russian blockade for humanitarian reasons. Just saying

Is access to the ports vital? I thought all the stuff was now being moved via the north? 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

The issue is that you appear to believe that anything written by people that have a different point of view to you is nonsense. Demanding links to support every single statement can be seen as a refusal to listen to others or application of a key point learned from “Plausible Deniability for Dummies.”

Plausible deniability for Dummies? You got a copy on your desk aye?

So what are the options? Ask people to back up their claims or allow the Czar Putin apologists to simply carry on posting baseless lies and disinformation?

[EdwardV]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Is access to the ports vital? I thought all the stuff was now being moved via the north? 

Yes they just started railing it out through Romania last week. However from what I understand they can’t move much. The infrastructure isn’t set up for large amounts. They are trying to reopen an old abandoned RxR line to help out. So yes reopening the port is critical. Part of the issue is the Ukrainian silos we’re already full. If they can’t empty them, they have no where to store the next harvest. Means they won’t sow the fields …

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So what are the options? Ask people to back up their claims or allow the Czar Putin apologists to simply carry on posting baseless lies and disinformation?

Consider if they are telling the truth or not instead of instantly demanding proof on everything others claim. It is self defeating to abuse the rule of providing links to supports statements presented as facts when the facts are easily accessible. This is a discussion, not an argument. 

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Consider if they are telling the truth or not instead of instantly demanding proof on everything others claim. It is self defeating to abuse the rule of providing links to supports statements presented as facts when the facts are easily accessible. This is a discussion, not an argument. 

Ah right so you are of the opinion that Czar Putin apologists should be given free reign to post lies.

Its an established tactic of Putin bots. The strategy is not to cause people to believe something new, but rather to sow doubt and cause distrust in information sources that are usually seen as legitimate, in particular to deter domestic opposition to the Russian president.

Hence the anti MSM rhetoric from you guys.

[EdwardV]

 

Vladimir Putin's top military commander has been flown out of the war zone with shrapnel wounds after being to sent to Ukraine by the Russian president to secure victory, a former Russian internal affairs minister has claimed. Valery Gerasimov, the chief of staff of the Russian army, was today wounded in Izyum in Ukraine's Kharviv region, which has been at the centre of intense fighting since Russia's invasion … The chief of staff's injury came just one day after Russian Major General Andrei Simonov, 55, was killed in Kharkiv, according to an adviser to Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky. He is Russia's ninth general to have been killed since the start of the invasion.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10772727/amp/Putins-military-commander-Valery-Gerasimov-wounded-forced-evacuate-war-zone.html

Nine!?! And they just missed picking off the top general to boot. I’ve read the Donbas offensive is stalling and Ukraine is counter attacking further south??? 

[Fanta]

Just now, EdwardV said:

Yes they just started railing it out through Romania last week. However from what I understand they can’t move much. The infrastructure isn’t set up for large amounts. They are trying to reopen an old abandoned RxR line to help out. So yes reopening the port is critical. Part of the issue is the Ukrainian silos we’re already full. If they can’t empty them, they have no where to store the next harvest. Means they won’t sow the fields …

A runway at Odessa was destroyed and a land bridge between Romania and Odessa was destroyed so it is safe to assume the railways are next. The economy will suffer however vital humanitarian aid can still be moved in via the north. I think your real question is will NATO use the port blockade as an excuse to sink some Russian tugboats? 

[Fanta]

17 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Vladimir Putin's top military commander has been flown out of the war zone with shrapnel wounds after being to sent to Ukraine by the Russian president to secure victory, a former Russian internal affairs minister has claimed. Valery Gerasimov, the chief of staff of the Russian army, was today wounded in Izyum in Ukraine's Kharviv region, which has been at the centre of intense fighting since Russia's invasion … The chief of staff's injury came just one day after Russian Major General Andrei Simonov, 55, was killed in Kharkiv, according to an adviser to Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky. He is Russia's ninth general to have been killed since the start of the invasion.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10772727/amp/Putins-military-commander-Valery-Gerasimov-wounded-forced-evacuate-war-zone.html

Nine!?! And they just missed picking off the top general to boot. I’ve read the Donbas offensive is stalling and Ukraine is counter attacking further south??? 

Why the hell would you send your top commanders into the conflict area. Don’t they have Zoom? 
btw: Kyiv claims he was killed in March so maybe the Russians are just moving his corpse around for morale boosting purposes?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/vitaly-gerasimov-second-russian-general-killed-ukraine-defence-ministry-claims

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Ah right so you are of the opinion that Czar Putin apologists should be given free reign to post lies.

Its an established tactic of Putin bots. The strategy is not to cause people to believe something new, but rather to sow doubt and cause distrust in information sources that are usually seen as legitimate, in particular to deter domestic opposition to the Russian president.

Hence the anti MSM rhetoric from you guys.

By all means demand links on questionable statements but don’t question everything. You could have found that Geneva Convention info in 1 minute and then continued discussing the issue but instead you make a song and dance about it. Even liars tell the truth sometimes and crying wolf won’t work all the time.