News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

very lucky and lost just 50 lives.

Yeah they should buy some lottery tickets they are so lucky.

[Thaidup]

16 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

Who's narrative, please? I have not seen that!

Reports are that missiles with the serial number sequences where used by Ukraine in 2015, Just pointing out inconsistencies, it does not mean that I believe any of it, just seems suspicious. 

https://www.newsy-today.com/russia-serial-number-proves-missile-that-hit-ukraines-kramatorsk-train-station-okezone-news/

[EdwardV]

35 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You watch the video and you still don’t understand why villages, towns and cities are being shelled? 
Civilians must be evacuated from the path of combat, not used as human shields. It is a part of the Geneva Convention. 

I know where you are headed, just don’t think you made it all the way there. So the villages are being shelled to force the evacuation of the civilians. Ok but what if they refuse to leave? What if they physically can’t leave? Better yet what if the offensive moves so fast (like the first days of the war), they don’t have time to leave? Doesn’t absolve Russia of the responsibility of targeting civilians. 

[Thaidup]

Asking the mods, Can I post video reports of independent journalists in Mariupol about Azov and Russian forces?

[EdwardV]

26 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

Instead, they came down so far away from the supposed target, that the Ukrainians were very lucky and lost just 50 lives.

Russia unsurprisingly hasn’t targeted infrastructure they would probably want to use at a later time. You know after they expect to occupy the terrain question. To not hit the station itself should be expected. However if you want to kill just people, you shoot a little further away. You know kinda like what Russia did. Just saying. 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Thaidup said:

OK, Does this one fit?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/14/us-confirms-2019-airstrike-hit-crowd-of-syrian-women-and-children

You are getting much closer. Clearly the strike was ordered and there was a clear disregard for possible civilians casualties. However the civilians were not the target: 

The bombs killed at least 16 IS fighters, according to the US military assessment. It also confirmed four civilian deaths.

it was interesting to see the US immediately flagged the strike as a possible war crime. I wonder if Russia does that? It was also clearly followed up. I wonder if Russia does that? Of course it was also later covered up. Ok yes Russia does that too. It was also later exposed for what it was. Russia not so much. 

[Thaidup]

9 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

You are getting much closer. Clearly the strike was ordered and there was a clear disregard for possible civilians casualties. However the civilians were not the target: 

The bombs killed at least 16 IS fighters, according to the US military assessment. It also confirmed four civilian deaths.

it was interesting to see the US immediately flagged the strike as a possible war crime. I wonder if Russia does that? It was also clearly followed up. I wonder if Russia does that? Of course it was also later covered up. Ok yes Russia does that too. It was also later exposed for what it was. Russia not so much. 

Thankyou for a balanced point of view and for being able to make a good point about the "flagging" without yelling out "you are a troll".

[EdwardV]

Interestingly it seems Poland will be flying air patrols over Slovakia. This will allow the Slovakian Air Force to retired their Mig29s as they prepare to receive their new F-16s in …. 2024? I know it takes time to train pilots in new aircraft, but two years? Hahaha 

What’s the over and under on those Slovakian Mig29s ending up in Ukraine in a month or two? 

 

https://theaviationist.com/2022/04/30/poland-to-provide-air-policing-to-slovakia/amp/

Another clear example of the west being all in. 

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

There are plenty of examples of western forces making a mistake and hitting civilians. What they DO NOT DO is target civilians.

Unlike Czar Putin and his thugs.

Do you believe Czar Putin and his thugs have not targeted civilians? A simple yes I believe they have or a no I do not believe so will do as an answer.

The problem is often the cowardly fanatic terrorist tactic of using their own families & clans as “human shields” even though the gloves came off on this after 9/11. So, to get say 2-3 very bad top guys hiding in let’s say a “wedding procession/ party” with presumed innocents, the decision is often made ( or not) to take them out with collateral damage of say 30-40 others, as to not get them could result in hundreds of dead otherwise and positive recruiting after successful terrorist actions would lead to hundreds more over time. Terrorists know this very well.

Now UK drone commanders ( General Officer or even Minister level ) might well baulk saying no we’ll get them later on their own. US….usually more ruthless so, not so much ….hence subject compensation…such strikes are made on very reliable ground recon evidence…. the bad guys were certainly there in this case so suspect that subject “ wedding” strike was no “ accident”.  GWOT is a form of Total War remember. 

[KRLMRX]

9 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

My country was not in the Vietnam war.

My point was that you somehow feel its unfair the west is supplying the Ukraine while your own country has a long history of doing the same.

Whats even better is that Czar Putin is powerless to stop it. Or the economic collapse of his empire because of sanctions.

you are careless. I wrote that the inclusion of NATO in this war was inevitable. I just stated a fact. And I never wrote that it was unfair.

[KRLMRX]

9 hours ago, Fester said:

You assume that this war will be the sole reason for inflation and the effects of that.

Not so. This has been coming for years because: 

a) US, EU and Japanese monetary and financial policies have encouraged it - massive debt and low interest rates have aided markets but hidden the fact that there was never a true recovery from the 2008 financial crisis.

b) Covid19 has amplified the effects of all of this.

c) Globalization and these "just in time" supply regimes have now backfired..

d) Recent US and European so-called "green" policies have resulted in a ridiculous over-reliance on Russian energy, especially in Europe. 

Yes, this war might well finally send everything tumbling down but the contributing factors are many.

No, I do not think so.  

But the war will definitely exacerbate the consequences of the actions you indicated.

[KRLMRX]

6 hours ago, EdwardV said:

For that to be true, NATO would need to have convinced Ukraine to attacked Russia. Never mind the fact several counties who are not NATO members are supporting Ukraine. 
 

In your misplaced outrage over NATO supporting Ukraine. Let’s not forget it was Russia who started this unjust war. And it’s Russia who has decided to continue the war. And it’s Russia who doesn’t want to end it except on their own terms. 

I never resented this.  On the contrary, I wrote that it was inevitable.  I'm just stating a fact.  

and No, in order to participate in the war, it is not necessary to be the first to attack.

[EdwardV]

47 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

and No, in order to participate in the war, it is not necessary to be the first to attack.

Your point was a proxy war. Not “participation. Yes NATO would have to convince Ukraine to attack Russia. That’s how a proxy war is started. For one county or entity to get someone else to fight in their place. At least that’s the technical definition. If Russia starts the war, Ukraine is defending themselves for their own sake and nothing more. That doesn’t preclude NATO from having a motive in supporting Ukraine. That’s just called a win win. 
 

Yes you are correct to participate you don’t have to just attack. You can defend too. Either way you have to be actively fighting. Regardless NATO isn’t participating in the war, per Russia. If you wish to say Russia is wrong, I’ll agree with you. 

[Fanta]

6 hours ago, Thaidup said:

Asking the mods, Can I post video reports of independent journalists in Mariupol about Azov and Russian forces?

iirc, the forum guidelines prohibit links to ASEAN stuff but that’s it. Be warned though that some will label you/the reporter as a swivel eyed crackpot if they don’t like the content regardless of it’s merit.

[Fanta]

2 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Yes you are correct to participate you don’t have to just attack. You can defend too. Either way you have to be actively fighting. Regardless NATO isn’t participating in the war, per Russia. If you wish to say Russia is wrong, I’ll agree with you. 

Really? Someone that points out the target, loads the gun and passes it to the soldier isn’t participating? imo, we are down to splitting hairs time now. Is the US actively or passively participating now?

participate: to take part in an endeavor 

[Fanta]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

You were asked to quote the section of the Geneva convention where civilians must be evacuated. You have failed to do so

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24

Civilians in areas of armed conflict and occupied territories are protected by the 159 articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention. I am sure you can find one article about human shields in there.

[Fanta]

7 hours ago, EdwardV said:

I know where you are headed, just don’t think you made it all the way there. So the villages are being shelled to force the evacuation of the civilians. Ok but what if they refuse to leave? What if they physically can’t leave? Better yet what if the offensive moves so fast (like the first days of the war), they don’t have time to leave? Doesn’t absolve Russia of the responsibility of targeting civilians. 

It is indeed an area where expectations and reality cannot always meet. The targeting of civilians is the point of contention here. As per the video if someone in a house was firing at tanks and then the tanks destroyed the house with a family inside would be it be presented as an attack on civilians or soldiers? 

[EdwardV]

29 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Really? Someone that points out the target, loads the gun and passes it to the soldier isn’t participating? imo, we are down to splitting hairs time now. Is the US actively or passively participating now?

participate: to take part in an endeavor 

I had to laugh at that. Yes the US might be on the other side of that line. At least if you believe the reports.

I would say passively participating. 

[EdwardV]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

As per the video if someone in a house was firing at tanks and then the tanks destroyed the house with a family inside would be it be presented as an attack on civilians or soldiers? 

Attack on soldiers. 

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

I had to laugh at that. Yes the US might be on the other side of that line. At least if you believe the reports.

I would say passively participating. 

I think the Democrats will be opening a new office in Kyiv soon judging by all the US politicians going there. Nancy Pelosi was there to scold some people the other day. Even Angelina Jolie went there for some orphan shopping. And the US embassy is reopening there in the next few weeks, so maybe they is some “pent up demand” to visit a war zone? 

[Fanta]

 

100 civilians evacuated from Azovstal plant in Mariupol as rescue operations continue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-02/100-civilians-evacuated-from-azovstal-plant/101029634

I have a funny feeling that group doesn’t include many males between the ages of 18-50. 

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24

Civilians in areas of armed conflict and occupied territories are protected by the 159 articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention. I am sure you can find one article about human shields in there.

Wrong again. What has that got to do with my post?

The claim was made that "under the Geneva convention civilians must be evacuated".

[Rookiescot]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

100 civilians evacuated from Azovstal plant in Mariupol as rescue operations continue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-02/100-civilians-evacuated-from-azovstal-plant/101029634

I have a funny feeling that group doesn’t include any males between the ages of 18-50. 

Oh so now they are not being held against their will?

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Oh so now they are not being held against their will?

These ones probably promised not to talk about the cannibalism ;-) You are not happy that some of the civilians have been freed? 

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

These ones probably promised not to talk about the cannibalism ;-) You are not happy that some of the civilians have been freed? 

You and the other Czar Putin appologists have been making claims that the civilians were being held against their will.

Will you now admit this position was wrong?