News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

because NATO is involved indirectly, through the hands of Ukrainian soldiers. I propose to dwell on the fact that this is a NATO proxy war against Russia.

So the Soviet Union and China was in a proxy war against the US in Vietnam given they were actively supplying weapons to North Vietnam.

What goes around comes around. 

[KRLMRX]

9 hours ago, HolyCowCm said:

How about leading the way with a suggestion in this forum to help us band together for the good of humanity? You are a smart guy as I have noticed. And I mean that sincerely.

if we want to change the world, we must be prepared for repression, even fatal ones.  

I don't think there are many such people on this forum.  I can't even count myself among them.  

But the fact that you think about it is already a success.

[KRLMRX]

4 hours ago, Smithydog said:

It is important and relevant.

It is part of the puzzle. It is easy to say that the actions of Putin and Russia are comparable to that of thieves, armed robbers. (i.e criminals.) When criminals get caught they have to make restitution and give back what they stole. 

But it is far wider than that. Putin needs resolution on his terms. To do so without, based on the narrative he has built up, especially with the Russian people, would be dangerous and push him into a corner, potentially even nuclear. 

The economic toll on Russia has only just begun. If they want relief from that they have to give major concessions. If they don't, it will be the most visible result to the Russian People and will hurt Putin from within. 

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/the-cost-of-war-how-russias-economy-will-struggle-to-pay-the-price-of-invading-ukraine/articleshow/90194979.cms

It is easy to see why the future economic toll could be severe on Russia and threaten Putin's hold on power. For example, where will they find the money to continue to support Crimea and the additional chunk of Ukraine that they want? To me, any likely current peace agreement will see division of Ukraine (like Korea) and Russia will have to prop up the additional separatist regions.

Rebuilding alone in those areas will be a massive drain on Russia. After all, he will want to transport tens or hundreds of thousands of Russians to those areas to prop up his "claims" like what happened in the Crimea. They will need places to live and all the relative infrastructure rebuilt.

https://eurasianet.org/russia-migration-helping-to-russify-crimea

Add on the sheer cost in munition replacement, let alone the loss of life, dictates significant challenges for Putin, most which he will not be able to hide. Tighter times often increase the negative response internally in a country. If the European countries continue to drop their reliance on Russia's oil and gas, it will be difficult for Russia to find alternative customers without heavy additional transport costs  or new infrastructure draining more money out of the economy.

If needed, who will lend them the money to do everything they need including the day to day living requirements? The water in the dam is not an endless supply and with little sign of rain, they could soon see their "money" taps running dry.

The sad point is the continuing cost in lives, both civilian and military, which Putin clearly does not care about. It will only get worse the longer Ukraine holds on. The longer they do, the weaker Russia's negotiating position becomes. The alternatives paint a scary picture all just for the ego of one man, Putin.

this is all true, but the same processes, albeit on a smaller scale, are going on all over the world.

For example, Europe this year will face the largest inflation in decades.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eurozone-inflation-hits-fresh-record-as-growth-slows-in-first-quarter/

War ALWAYS hits ordinary citizens first, moneybags, including Putin, will be the last to suffer.

[KRLMRX]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

Quite an arsenal there. 

I wrote that such photos appear daily.  If, out of the thousands of MANPADS delivered to Ukraine, hundreds ended up in the hands of the enemy, this is not funny, it seems to me.

[HolyCowCm]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

}?'.;l   yh1` get the impression that you don't like Vlad The Bad much! Don't worry, most of us here don't either.

No need to apologize. Yes, good luck to the good people.

It was the rant of the night and so threw my 30 cents in. But no I don't and I also have quite a few other leaders I hate as well. Our world is in bad shape.

[KRLMRX]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

Not necessarily, individuals can change countries, as history shows. How did the Soviet Union collapse?

Get rid of the dross, start again and Russia might get lucky  for good. 

no, the USSR did not collapse because of a couple of good guys who came and fixed everything.

[vlad]

Let us be honest Russia is not very good at War is it? for a reputable third-world Army with supposedly superior weaponry, they are struggling to take one major objective. Have they taken a major city and placed their flag on the City Hall no. Have they committed ground troops to take on Ukrainian troops to defeat them in their main objectives no? So what have the Russian forces won in a three Month war?. They failed to take out their prime Target, Kyiv in retreat they raped murdered, and looted towns they had taken, they committed war crimes and tried to cover their atrocities by burying the Civilians in mass graves now seen and documented for future war crime trials. What they have done is reduced cities to rubble by indiscriminately firing missiles into civilian areas and non-military targets such as hospitals, Apartment blocks, theatres, and Shopping Centres. It's no good trying to cover up what Russian troops are doing and blaming others ie the US or Nato or any other pathetic reasons some on here are using. The fact remaining is that Russian invaded another country, they failed with their invasion and the west is supplying the Ukrainian forces to defeat them. The West has not put Troops on Ukrainian ground the west has not given aircraft to Ukraine. So what has Russia won?.

 

[vlad]

27 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

this is all true, but the same processes, albeit on a smaller scale, are going on all over the world.

For example, Europe this year will face the largest inflation in decades.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eurozone-inflation-hits-fresh-record-as-growth-slows-in-first-quarter/

War ALWAYS hits ordinary citizens first, moneybags, including Putin, will be the last to suffer.

Nothing to do with this thread.

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

So the Soviet Union and China was in a proxy war against the US in Vietnam given they were actively supplying weapons to North Vietnam.

What goes around comes around. 

Is this the reason for your hatred? Are you still feeling defeated in Vietnam?

Poor Ukrainians, die for insults 60 years ago.

[Fester]

27 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

no, the USSR did not collapse because of a couple of good guys who came and fixed everything.

But they were good, especially relative to what there is now! 

[Fester]

35 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

I wrote that such photos appear daily.  If, out of the thousands of MANPADS delivered to Ukraine, hundreds ended up in the hands of the enemy, this is not funny, it seems to me.

Maybe you did. I've never seen many and most of those are easy to stage.

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Transam said:

So funny, who was in the background in N.Korea and Vietnam supplying stuff, yes your comrades...

Your one way street is so funny..............But sad.............

The Korean War and Vietnam War were both proxy wars. 

Vietnam War -  “The war is widely considered to be a Cold War-era proxy war”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

Korean War - “The Cold War conflict was a civil war that became a proxy battle between the superpowers as they clashed over communism and democracy.”

https://www.history.com/news/korean-war-causes-us-involvement 

 

[vlad]

6 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

Is this the reason for your hatred? Are you still feeling defeated in Vietnam?

Poor Ukrainians, die for insults 60 years ago.

Deflection.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Exactly. On that note, are you bored with your steady diet of propaganda pie yet? There should really be a Surgeon General’s advisory warning that excessive consumption causes a loss of balance and makes the consumer prone to exaggeration. 

Yes, I must say that I'm rather full of the foul food you lot regularly dish out.

[vlad]

11 minutes ago, Transam said:

..............They were poxy wars, and your comrades were in the background supplying the goods, no difference to countries supplying goods to Ukraine, sorry if it upsets you.....

Yet another deflection from our Russian propaganda minister can't debate on the thread so deflect it and pull out the old chestnut yes but about the Korean / Vietnam war lol. As our friend Rookie says " Whataboutism " give it up Haw Haw your making yourself to sound a bit of a tool.

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, vlad said:

Yet another deflection from our Russian propaganda minister can't debate on the thread so deflect it and pull out the old chestnut yes but about the Korean / Vietnam war lol. As our friend Rookie says " Whataboutism " give it up Haw Haw your making yourself to sound a bit of a tool.

Remain ignorant, your choice. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, KRLMRX said:

Is this the reason for your hatred? Are you still feeling defeated in Vietnam?

Poor Ukrainians, die for insults 60 years ago.

My country was not in the Vietnam war.

My point was that you somehow feel its unfair the west is supplying the Ukraine while your own country has a long history of doing the same.

Whats even better is that Czar Putin is powerless to stop it. Or the economic collapse of his empire because of sanctions.

[Fester]

3 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

this is all true, but the same processes, albeit on a smaller scale, are going on all over the world.

For example, Europe this year will face the largest inflation in decades.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eurozone-inflation-hits-fresh-record-as-growth-slows-in-first-quarter/

War ALWAYS hits ordinary citizens first, moneybags, including Putin, will be the last to suffer.

You assume that this war will be the sole reason for inflation and the effects of that.

Not so. This has been coming for years because: 

a) US, EU and Japanese monetary and financial policies have encouraged it - massive debt and low interest rates have aided markets but hidden the fact that there was never a true recovery from the 2008 financial crisis.

b) Covid19 has amplified the effects of all of this.

c) Globalization and these "just in time" supply regimes have now backfired..

d) Recent US and European so-called "green" policies have resulted in a ridiculous over-reliance on Russian energy, especially in Europe. 

Yes, this war might well finally send everything tumbling down but the contributing factors are many.

[EdwardV]

5 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

because NATO is involved indirectly, through the hands of Ukrainian soldiers. I propose to dwell on the fact that this is a NATO proxy war against Russia.

For that to be true, NATO would need to have convinced Ukraine to attacked Russia. Never mind the fact several counties who are not NATO members are supporting Ukraine. 
 

In your misplaced outrage over NATO supporting Ukraine. Let’s not forget it was Russia who started this unjust war. And it’s Russia who has decided to continue the war. And it’s Russia who doesn’t want to end it except on their own terms. 

[Thaidup]

On 4/28/2022 at 6:31 AM, Rookiescot said:

One incident. Show me one where the west targeted something like a railway station full of women and kids.

OK, here is one,

https://www.newsweek.com/wedding-became-funeral-us-still-silent-one-year-deadly-yemen-drone-strike-291403

[EdwardV]

2 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

OK, here is one,

https://www.newsweek.com/wedding-became-funeral-us-still-silent-one-year-deadly-yemen-drone-strike-291403

So you are saying the US specifically targeted that wedding convoy knowing it was civilians and not rebels? 
 

There is a huge difference between hitting civilians by mistake and targeting them. Pretty sure that’s the definition used by the UN for what makes a war crime. When you hit a hospital once it’s a mistake. Hit a second one and it’s probably a mistake. You hit 3+ dozen of them, it’s a war crime. 

[Rookiescot]

9 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

OK, here is one,

https://www.newsweek.com/wedding-became-funeral-us-still-silent-one-year-deadly-yemen-drone-strike-291403

An al-Qaeda convoy got hit. Now they claim it was a wedding.

And thats the best example you can come up with?

Tell me does it compare in any way with the devastation we can all see in cities, towns and villages in the Ukraine?

And remember these are the cities, towns and villages Czar Putin is "liberating". 

[Thaidup]

4 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

So you are saying the US specifically targeted that wedding convoy knowing it was civilians and not rebels? 
 

There is a huge difference between hitting civilians by mistake and targeting them. Pretty sure that’s the definition used by the UN for what makes a war crime. When you hit a hospital once it’s a mistake. Hit a second one and it’s probably a mistake. You hit 3+ dozen of them, it’s a war crime.

No, not saying anything, I was asked to show one example of the west killing civilians, so I showed an example of the west killing civilians. Generally speaking wedding processions are full of women and children.

[Guest1]

7 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

So you are saying the US specifically targeted that wedding convoy knowing it was civilians and not rebels? 
 

There is a huge difference between hitting civilians by mistake and targeting them. Pretty sure that’s the definition used by the UN for what makes a war crime. When you hit a hospital once it’s a mistake. Hit a second one and it’s probably a mistake. You hit 3+ dozen of them, it’s a war crime. 

And now again, there still is the question:

Can you say, the Russians targeted a train station with 4000 people, in the case that 2 rockets did hit so far away from that train station, that "just" 50 people died?

The train station itself  did not get hit, if I recall the pictures right.

At this mentioned wedding, the US killed 20% and another 30% of the targeted people got injured.

That might be the difference between a "mistaken" but planed hit and, perhaps, a possible false flag attack. 

Has anyone from the Ukrainian side, or the UN, ever said something about the serials of these rockets? Are that the latest models, only the Russia has? Or ....?

[Thaidup]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

An al-Qaeda convoy got hit. Now they claim it was a wedding.

So are suggesting that the US paid al-qaeda?

From the newsweek story . "However, recent investigations have found that they have secretly paid a record sum of over $1 million in compensation to the families of the victims".