News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Freeduhdumb]

On 4/23/2022 at 5:59 AM, Guphz said:

This is nonsense.

There was no coup in 2014. It was the people rising up against a president who was trying to bring Ukraine under Russian rule. Ukrainians had tasted the sweet taste of freedom in the west, and wanted none of it. So protests grew stronger and stronger until the Russian puppet started killing protesters. That was the lasts straw. The Russian puppet ended up escaping to Russia.

So no coup. Just the majority of the people rising up against a pro-Russian puppet, and successfully chasing him away.

There have been two democratic elections since. So even if 2014 was a coup, which it wasn't as demonstrated above, that would have been irrelevant because we are now in 2022 and two democratic elections away from 2014.

Your a mind controlled robot who has no critical thinking skills, let alone any real-world experience. I lived there, worked there and have many colleagues and friends there... Unlike you, I have real-world on the ground experience. You TV critics have not the slightest idea what is actually going on there... You're a typical Statist... 

[Thaidup]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:32 AM, Smithydog said:

The Russian Invasion has done one thing that many thought was not possible. Unite people.

United? the media, yes., I may wonder if the American people where given a choice in a poll, say, should we spend this money on providing weapons to Ukraine, or should we spend it here first? maybe on homelessness, Low cost housing, or drug rehab centers? I wonder out of curiosity what the majority of American citizens would think a more worthy cause?  The other factor is that any half educated bloke knows that some of these weapons will end up on the black market, Unless you agree that all the weapons are traced and tracked? This is going to end up with stingers in the hands of Islamasists again, and one day an airliner taking off from Heathrow or LA international or any other major International airport is going to be shot down killing all onboard. Just a thought.

[Fanta]

42 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Under what International Law does Russia, or any country, have rights to issue any "replacement" identification to non-Russian citizens?

Apart from the law of common sense that would say the Idea of issuing Ukrainian speaking refugees some form of official Russian documentation to use in Russia so they can get assistance is probably not such a bad thing ?  I don’t know.
People here have claimed that Ukrainian passports are being seized and “replacement” ID cards issued in place. I wasn’t aware that all Ukrainian refugees even had passports or IDs, let alone on hand to travel with during war times. I didn’t question that statement but Google isn’t helping me here. Got a link to a credible source? 

[oldschooler]

10 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

United? the media, yes., I may wonder if the American people where given a choice in a poll, say, should we spend this money on providing weapons to Ukraine, or should we spend it here first? maybe on homelessness, Low cost housing, or drug rehab centers? I wonder out of curiosity what the majority of American citizens would think a more worthy cause?  The other factor is that any half educated bloke knows that some of these weapons will end up on the black market, Unless you agree that all the weapons are traced and tracked? This is going to end up with stingers in the hands of Islamasists again, and one day an airliner taking off from Heathrow or LA international or any other major International airport is going to be shot down killing all onboard. Just a thought.

Research “ representative democracy”.
You can’t ask a voting population  every time an important issue arises. 
The peoples’ elected reps., swayed by public opinion & politics, decide what is worthy. Except in very rare cases when a Referendum is held to directly consult & implement the peoples’ will.  

[oldschooler]

7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Apart from the law of common sense that would say the Idea of issuing Ukrainian speaking refugees some form of official Russian documentation to show to Russian speaking Russians in Russia so they can assist a Ukrainian is probably not such a bad idea ?  I don’t know.

People here have claimed that Ukrainian passports are being seized and “replacement” ID cards issued in place. I wasn’t aware that all Ukrainian refugees had passports or IDs, let alone on hand to travel with. I didn’t question that but Google isn’t helping me here. Got a link to a credible source? 

Supplemental ID = Right 

Replacement ID = Wrong

[Smithydog]

11 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

United? the media, yes., I may wonder if the American people where given a choice in a poll, say, should we spend this money on providing weapons to Ukraine, or should we spend it here first? maybe on homelessness, Low cost housing, or drug rehab centers? I wonder out of curiosity what the majority of American citizens would think a more worthy cause?  The other factor is that any half educated bloke knows that some of these weapons will end up on the black market, Unless you agree that all the weapons are traced and tracked? This is going to end up with stingers in the hands of Islamasists again, and one day an airliner taking off from Heathrow or LA international or any other major International airport is going to be shot down killing all onboard. Just a thought.

Did you read my post about the polls and the obvious support they show? Perhaps not, otherwise you would have realised the polls show the support as does the bi-partisan effort of politicians. Perhaps you should go door-knock and see the response you will get.

Obviously, proliferation of arms is always a concern. But this has been and will be the case for however long weapons are made and sold or distributed by countries. But sometime the greater good is the determining action, along with the need in the present to overcome an oppressive invasion. Ask yourself this. If Russia had not invaded, would such a need even existed.

The real problem here is that the Russian President decided on a regrettable course of action that has consequences for so many. Anything else is just a secondary problem, caused by that, the world has to sadly deal with. Better for all if he had stayed at home or stood down to save the rest the world the trouble.

[JohnC]

37 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

NATO have “psyched out” Putin and led him by his tyrant ego into a giant bear trap. Since their 2008 “ welcome mat” to Ukraine (never to be completed so Russia combatted outside NATO) NATO have cleverly been making Putin “ feel” increasingly “ threatened” by NATO “ expansion & encirclement”.

Ukraine understandably leaning to EU has further enraged Putin in this regard (so cementing the NATO plan).  

NATO & Ukraine knowing very well Ukraine would be invaded and wrecked as a minimum consequence (although this was always going to happen in any event). 

End Game to weaken & reduce Russia by twin Sanctions / Aid program, is in progress. 

Is that NATO being “ aggressive” ?

I would hope so as you really don’t want a military body protecting Western Civilization that is NOT aggressive (in a controlled manner)!

Today the other impossible Ukraine Dream (and Putin Nightmare) of joining EU predictably vetoed by Austria ….but could easily have been France ……or other

Again...... this is not what NATO is meant to be about. 

A peace keeping force that leads nations into war by psyching out leaders of countries and enticing them into bear traps?

Sorry but that's a load of @%&!& and you know it. 

 

 

[Smithydog]

10 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Apart from the law of common sense that would say the Idea of issuing Ukrainian speaking refugees some form of official Russian documentation to show to Russian speaking Russians in Russia so they can assist a Ukrainian is probably not such a bad idea ?  I don’t know.

People here have claimed that Ukrainian passports are being seized and “replacement” ID cards issued in place. I wasn’t aware that all Ukrainian refugees had passports or IDs, let alone on hand to travel with. I didn’t question that but Google isn’t helping me here. Got a link to a credible source? 

How are any of us to know for Russia except from past examples. They are not helping their own case through the lack of transparency by them as evidenced by this article in Tass which seems to be the only example, unlike the supporting material for what the Polish are doing.

https://tass.com/politics/903997

Doesn't compare in the transparency states. As I have said before, if they have nothing to hide from the world as to their actions and their reasoning, why are they hiding it all. Surely such evidence would bolster their position.

Unfortunately, they are doing the same as they did with the UN. Lack of evidence being produced and that which they do is so flimsy, not distributed or seemingly does not stand up to professional scrutiny by experts. 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-facts-versus-the-evidence/

I have spent time doing as was requested by others on this Forum. Research and understand the Russian perspective. All it has done is show even more how fake and appalling the Russian position is. Not good advice from some members on this Forum as they obviously had not researched what was available, including long past statements and speeches from President Putin's own presidential website!

http://en.kremlin.ru/

 

[Jumpinjackflash]

2 hours ago, Alavan said:

NATO is  moving troops to fellow NATO countries bordering Russia as defensive strategie.
Individual countries, NATO and non-NATO, are sending help to Ukraine.

After the way Russia's armed forces have conducted themselves in what was supposed to be a quick victory in Ukraine, there's little doubt that NATO could make short work of decimating Russia's military. What's holding NATO back isn't fear of Putin's army, it's fear of a nuclear apocalypse.

 

[oldschooler]

32 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Your a mind controlled robot who has no critical thinking skills, let alone any real-world experience. I lived there, worked there and have many colleagues and friends there... Unlike you, I have real-world on the ground experience. You TV critics have not the slightest idea what is actually going on there... You're a typical Statist... 

Irrational Emotional Nonsense Rant. Offers nothing of value. Your “ just accept what I say as I was there” doubtful claim,even if true, is not in itself valid & no substitute for rational rebuttal. Your ill- judged obnoxious personal attacks are baseless. 

Were you “there” perhaps then as a Russian Agent ?

Your posts demonstrate nothing but an angry contempt for freedom & democracy and right of the PEOPLE to chase away puppet Traitors, once exposed, back to Moscow. 

 

[Thaidup]

28 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

The real problem here is that the Russian President decided on a regrettable course of action that has consequences for so many. Anything else is just a secondary problem, caused by that, the world has to sadly deal with. Better for all if he had stayed at home or stood down to save the rest the world the trouble.

One with a curious mind may ask, Why?, then ask Why now?. Don't get me wrong, I feel that this whole situation is shit, And I feel deeply for the population of Ukraine, I could not imagine if this happened to me or my family, But something stinks about the whole thing. First was the Nazi narrative then the Bio Lab narrative, Then the corruption in Ukraine narrative with Hunter Biden and the child trafficking, etc? I don't know but something is suss concerning Ukraine.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-trafficking-in-persons-report/ukraine/

[oldschooler]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Again...... this is not what NATO is meant to be about. 

A peace keeping force that leads nations into war by psyching out leaders of countries and enticing them into bear traps?

Sorry but that's a load of @%&!& and you know it. 

NATO is “ about” defending the West ( by ANY means). It certainly is not some useless “ peacekeeping force”. That’s rubbish UN terminology.

My post is my detailed & justified opinion and fits the facts. Why else was Ukraine NOT admitted to NATO after 14 years? Because ( I contend) Ukraine wanted by NATO as Buffer State & Killing Ground. Have Anything to rebut my proposal rather than just rubbish it with liberal outrage? 

[Fanta]

Video of Russian troops appealing to the Ukrainians trapped in the steelworks to come out.

 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

NATO is “ about” defending the West ( by ANY means). It certainly is not some useless “ peacekeeping force”. That’s rubbish UN terminology.

My post is my detailed & justified opinion and fits the facts. Why else was Ukraine NOT admitted to NATO after 14 years? Because ( I contend) Ukraine wanted by NATO as Buffer State & Killing Ground. Have Anything to rebut my proposal rather than just rubbish it with liberal outrage? 

Liberal outrage?

Your stating that NATO has been instigating wars.

I'm stating that's not what NATO is for. 

Can't make it any clearer

For the record I don't think they're a useless peace keeping force, selective maybe, but generally efficient.

However under no circumstances should they be involved with starting wars which is what you're implying.

[EdwardV]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

It would appear the US is selling some weapons to Ukraine, not donating them.

No, that money is for Ukraine to purchase weapons from other countries. From the article: 

cash that countries can use to purchase supplies that they might need.

the same applies to the money being give to other countries, so they can buy supplies to give to Ukraine. Just giving a little more flexibility 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Thaidup said:

American people where given a choice in a poll, say, should we spend this money on providing weapons to Ukraine, or should we spend it here first?

You seem to be assuming Americans don’t know that option exists. It’s not their first rodeo. Fact is the amount being give to Ukraine isn’t that much in the big picture (sadly), the US spends way more in wars. Which by the way this spending might just keep America out of. Seems like money well spent if you ask me. 

[EdwardV]

32 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Why else was Ukraine NOT admitted to NATO after 14 years? Because ( I contend) Ukraine wanted by NATO as Buffer State & Killing Ground. Have Anything to rebut my proposal rather than just rubbish it with liberal outrage? 

You mean besides the obvious fact that NATO bylaws don’t allow counties to join who are in conflict with others? For your theory to be correct, NATO had to feel they could manipulate Putin into attacking Ukraine. Wouldn’t the best way to do that is to actually make them a member? Not the opposite which is what happen. 

[Fanta]

53 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

How are any of us to know for Russia except from past examples.

so no credible link to support the “passports being seized” claim? Were the Ukrainian non- combatants kidnapped or rescued? Depends on who is telling the story. The MSM is not even close to providing objective reporting. I support Ukraine in this war. It  doesn’t mean I need to automatically condemn everything Russia does. I’ll leave that for the masses and make up my own mind. And that is not easy to do with Russia keeping mum about nearly everything. They are their own worst enemy with their lack of transparency for the Western media and they probably don’t give a hoot about that anyway.

And Forbes? Look at this bold claim from one month ago

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/03/24/the-ukrainian-army-has-captured-enough-russian-tanks-to-make-good-all-its-own-losses-and-then-some/?sh=50d9e9367922

[Freeduhdumb]

44 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Irrational Emotional Nonsense Rant. Offers nothing of value. Your “ just accept what I say as I was there” doubtful claim,even if true, is not in itself valid & no substitute for rational rebuttal. Your ill- judged obnoxious personal attacks are baseless. 

Were you “there” perhaps then as a Russian Agent ?

Your posts demonstrate nothing but an angry contempt for freedom & democracy and right of the PEOPLE to chase away puppet Traitors, once exposed, back to Moscow. 

Like I said... a Statist. Good luck with your immorality... it's in fact what makes you blind. What happened to you.. how did you get SO broken!

[Freeduhdumb]

51 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

NATO is “ about” defending the West ( by ANY means). It certainly is not some useless “ peacekeeping force”. That’s rubbish UN terminology.

My post is my detailed & justified opinion and fits the facts. Why else was Ukraine NOT admitted to NATO after 14 years? Because ( I contend) Ukraine wanted by NATO as Buffer State & Killing Ground. Have Anything to rebut my proposal rather than just rubbish it with liberal outrage? 

 

It seems that I need to explain this too you again... You're a typical troll running your mind in circles... let us review shall we...

From their website... two important words. "Prevent Conflict" 

NATO has failed... 

An excerpt from their mission statement:
POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and enables members to consult and cooperate on defence and security-related issues to solve problems, build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military power to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under the collective defence clause of NATO's founding treaty - Article 5 of the Washington Treaty or under a United Nations mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations."

There would be no need to begin operating in fear of the great Russian Aggression if NATO had done its job from the beginning... IT HASN'T. NATO is a complete failure. 

You haven't put the inception of NATO into context friend... why was NATO created in the first place? It was created as a treaty organization to mitigate the Soviet Union. Why are states again embracing Russia. Belarus, the many stans, such as Kazakstan, and yes Ukraine, just to name a few. Ukraine sided with Russia in 2014, for their own democratic reasons and the engineered coup de tat, regime change operation that was the reaction of the "West" (and resultant failure to fully implement the Minks II agreements) that followed IS the catalyst of why and where we are today (war). So again... They've (NATO as a failed treaty organization failing there own mission statement) failed. That mission statement of conflict resolution/mitigation that again can be found on their website has been a complete failure to its member states. The members of that organization need to find another solution... what is occurring right now is a COMPLETE FAILURE... 

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Noble_Design said:

Anger in Japan as Ukraine links Emperor Hirohito to Adolf Hitler

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/anger-in-japan-as-ukraine-links-emperor-hirohito-to-adolf-hitler

The Ukrainian government has forgotten or maybe didn't know that the wartime Emperor's decedents are still the Sovereign in Japan. 

Somehow, I don't think they care right now. 

[Fester]

26 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

It seems that I need to explain this too you again... You're a typical troll running your mind in circles... let us review shall we...

From their website... two important words. "Prevent Conflict" 

NATO has failed... 

An excerpt from their mission statement:
POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and enables members to consult and cooperate on defence and security-related issues to solve problems, build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military power to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under the collective defence clause of NATO's founding treaty - Article 5 of the Washington Treaty or under a United Nations mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations."

There would be no need to begin operating in fear of the great Russian Aggression if NATO had done its job from the beginning... IT HASN'T. NATO is a complete failure. 

You haven't put the inception of NATO into context friend... why was NATO created in the first place? It was created as a treaty organization to mitigate the Soviet Union. Why are states again embracing Russia. Belarus, the many stans, such as Kazakstan, and yes Ukraine, just to name a few. Ukraine sided with Russia in 2014, for their own democratic reasons and the engineered coup de tat, regime change operation that was the reaction of the "West" (and resultant failure to fully implement the Minks II agreements) that followed IS the catalyst of why and where we are today (war). So again... They've (NATO as a failed treaty organization failing there own mission statement) failed. That mission statement of conflict resolution/mitigation that again can be found on their website has been a complete failure to its member states. The members of that organization need to find another solution... what is occurring right now is a COMPLETE FAILURE... 

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

 

 

I think that Putin and this post are the complete failures. 

[Noble_Design]

43 minutes ago, Fester said:

Somehow, I don't think they care right now. 

They cared enough to apologize and rectify it

[Freeduhdumb]

36 minutes ago, Fester said:

I think that Putin and this post are the complete failures. 

Profound... thank you for your contributions to the conversation... You're an example of the ineptitude of the human race. Good luck... humanity, it really needs it.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

It seems that I need to explain this too you again... You're a typical troll running your mind in circles... let us review shall we...

From their website... two important words. "Prevent Conflict" 

NATO has failed... 

An excerpt from their mission statement:
POLITICAL - NATO promotes democratic values and enables members to consult and cooperate on defence and security-related issues to solve problems, build trust and, in the long run, prevent conflict.

MILITARY - NATO is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. If diplomatic efforts fail, it has the military power to undertake crisis-management operations. These are carried out under the collective defence clause of NATO's founding treaty - Article 5 of the Washington Treaty or under a United Nations mandate, alone or in cooperation with other countries and international organisations."

There would be no need to begin operating in fear of the great Russian Aggression if NATO had done its job from the beginning... IT HASN'T. NATO is a complete failure. 

You haven't put the inception of NATO into context friend... why was NATO created in the first place? It was created as a treaty organization to mitigate the Soviet Union. Why are states again embracing Russia. Belarus, the many stans, such as Kazakstan, and yes Ukraine, just to name a few. Ukraine sided with Russia in 2014, for their own democratic reasons and the engineered coup de tat, regime change operation that was the reaction of the "West" (and resultant failure to fully implement the Minks II agreements) that followed IS the catalyst of why and where we are today (war). So again... They've (NATO as a failed treaty organization failing there own mission statement) failed. That mission statement of conflict resolution/mitigation that again can be found on their website has been a complete failure to its member states. The members of that organization need to find another solution... what is occurring right now is a COMPLETE FAILURE... 

https://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html

Is the Ukraine a member of NATO?