News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Fanta]

53 minutes ago, PBS said:

Why would Russia faciltate the return of 'enemy civilians' for intelligence gathering, morale booster and so on.

And what meaningful intelligence could civilians provide that satellites do not provide already? Any morale boost is negligible. Relief is a better word. There can be no triumphant claims of “We did!” etc Ukrainian has no “claim to fame” in any evacuation of civilians into Ukraine from inside Russian held territory. Look at the civilians in the steelworks situation at the moment and Zelenskyy’s response. That does my head in. The only explanations that seems plausible to me is fear of a Russian massacre/collateral damage of the civilians or the Azov commanders are ignoring orders and not forcing the non combatants to leave. Using civilians as bargaining chips in peace talks seems, at best, unlikely.

[KRLMRX]

9 hours ago, Alavan said:

So why did some of them have to end up in Archangelsk?

As I understand it, new information has appeared, "which everyone knows about."  

And can you confirm with references that documents are being taken away from civilians from Ukraine and forcibly taken to Arkhangelsk?  

I know one refugee from Ukraine who lives in New York, another in Istanbul, and a third in Naples.  Maybe some refugees go to places where they have the opportunity to stay (relatives, friends, acquaintances)?

[Shishi]

6 hours ago, EdwardV said:

You quoted me, but you didn’t answer the question. How is NATO being aggressive? Please don’t tell me about Kosovo or Libya, that’s ancient history. We are talking about Ukraine, how are they being aggressive in connection to Ukraine? 

 

NATO aka (The Alliance of coward bullies) is fighting Russia through Ukraine, a proxy war, sacrificing people and a country that isn’t theirs to sacrifice just for the sake of military industrial complex, They don’t have the guts to fight Russia directly.

NATO is defensive force when they face a powerful country, offensive when it comes to small country.

 

[PBS]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Using civilians as bargaining chips in peace talks seems, at best, unlikely.

Forgive me, IMO, you comment is niave. maximum pressure is applied during peace / ceasefire negotiations. 

[Marble-eye]

24 minutes ago, Shishi said:

They don’t have the guts to fight Russia directly.

Be careful what you wish for, Russia has failed so far meeting any of its objectives, the mighty bear turns out to be just a big pussy albeit a cruel and sadistic one, and the Brave Putin will fight till every last Russian is dead, himself excluded of course.

 

[EdwardV]

27 minutes ago, Shishi said:

NATO aka (The Alliance of coward bullies) is fighting Russia through Ukraine, a proxy war, sacrificing people and a country that isn’t theirs to sacrifice just for the sake of military industrial complex, They don’t have the guts to fight Russia directly.

NATO is defensive force when they face a powerful country, offensive when it comes to small country.

So that means Russia is a small country? 
 

Your post would make more sense had NATO started the war. Of course we know Putin did back in 2014 and has been keeping it hot ever since. If anything, it’s been NATOs passivity and appeasement that’s emboldened Putin. Their lack of aggression if you will.

Is it a proxy war, most certainly. However that was Putin’s choice when he attacked. Ahhh the old classic “military industrial complex” card. Again would make more sense had Putin not been the one to force conflict. Never mind it’s the Ukrainians who are demanding more and more weapons. Don’t have the guts? Considering Putin has threaten nuclear war if NATO were to enter the conflict, you are suggesting WW3 is a good thing?

[Noble_Design]

Guys check this out: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10745115/France-Germany-sold-230million-military-hardware-including-bombs-missiles-Moscow.html

If this is true then I don't know what to say anymore.

[Fester]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

I am not excusing or condemning this, just trying to form my own opinion. Moving them deep inside Russia can be seen at suppressing the plight of innocents in war from ordinary Russians. Passports, ID cards - I don’t know. Taking them without issuing a replacement ID means tens of thousands undocumented people in country. Evacuate by a 3rd party? Neither side, understandably, trusts the any side and the Russians have clearly decided to take these matters into their own hands. The Russians will claim it is a humanitarian gesture while the MSM will claim it is hostage taking. There are pro Russia allegations that Azov soldiers attacked a known humanitarian convoy in Mariupol. If the Russians believe that how can they be expected to trust the Ukrainians to evacuate non combatants? I wouldn’t. Question:  Why burden yourself with 40,000+ of “the enemy” if you can just abandon them on their own soil? That’s the bit I don’t understand if we are expected to believe the MSM’s portrayal of this as a heinous act.

Maybe they want this 40,000+ (or whatever the number really is) to go  through advanced filtration?

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Shishi said:

NATO aka (The Alliance of coward bullies) is fighting Russia through Ukraine, a proxy war, sacrificing people and a country that isn’t theirs to sacrifice just for the sake of military industrial complex, They don’t have the guts to fight Russia directly.

NATO is defensive force when they face a powerful country, offensive when it comes to small country.

Ah! So NATO must have bribed Putin to invade and start the war! Brilliant.

[Fanta]

It would appear the US is selling some weapons to Ukraine, not donating them. 

Top envoy Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin on Sunday local time told Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and his advisers that the US would provide more than $US300 million ($417 million) in foreign military financing and had approved a $US165 million sale of ammunition.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-25/us-announces-military-aid-diplomatic-surge-for-ukraine/100932760

[Alavan]

10 hours ago, Fanta said:

You want to be in a war zone or a peace zone? It’s that simple. 

I suggest you look at google maps and check the location of Arkangelsk. Is there realy nothing closer?

 

[Noble_Design]

Anger in Japan as Ukraine links Emperor Hirohito to Adolf Hitler

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/anger-in-japan-as-ukraine-links-emperor-hirohito-to-adolf-hitler

The Ukrainian government has forgotten or maybe didn't know that the wartime Emperor's decedents are still the Sovereign in Japan. 

[Alavan]

5 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

As I understand it, new information has appeared, "which everyone knows about."  

And can you confirm with references that documents are being taken away from civilians from Ukraine and forcibly taken to Arkhangelsk?  

I know one refugee from Ukraine who lives in New York, another in Istanbul, and a third in Naples.  Maybe some refugees go to places where they have the opportunity to stay (relatives, friends, acquaintances)?

Amazing that more than 1400 Ukrainians had family in Arkhangelsk have family there. And now some Ukrainians have family in Siberia also. Those familymembers must have moved there gladly during Stalin's reign.

[Alavan]

5 hours ago, Shishi said:

NATO aka (The Alliance of coward bullies) is fighting Russia through Ukraine, a proxy war, sacrificing people and a country that isn’t theirs to sacrifice just for the sake of military industrial complex, They don’t have the guts to fight Russia directly.

NATO is defensive force when they face a powerful country, offensive when it comes to small country.

NATO is  moving troops to fellow NATO countries bordering Russia as defensive strategie.
Individual countries, NATO and non-NATO, are sending help to Ukraine.

[Grumpish]

3 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

Anger in Japan as Ukraine links Emperor Hirohito to Adolf Hitler

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/anger-in-japan-as-ukraine-links-emperor-hirohito-to-adolf-hitler

The Ukrainian government has forgotten or maybe didn't know that the wartime Emperor's decedents are still the Sovereign in Japan. 

Historically they are correct - there was a pact, the Tripartite Pact between Japan, Germany and Italy, signed in 1940. Somewhat tactless to use it in the propaganda war just now, though.

[Fanta]

23 minutes ago, Alavan said:

I suggest you look at google maps and check the location of Arkangelsk. Is there realy nothing closer?

Out of sight, out of mind perhaps? Or at least of the ordinary Russian citizens eyes. 

[oldschooler]

13 hours ago, Shishi said:

NATO is an offensive organization not a defensive anymore since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Would go as far as calling them terrorists, downright criminal and corporate warmongers, Their purpose for existing expired long ago and should be dismantle.

The narrative and fond wish of all Tyrants & their shameful supporters. NATO of course has always been Offensive as what else is the best form of Defense ? Being “ nice” to Russia merely invites destruction.

NATO stands between Barbarian Murderous Unfree Cultures like Russia China Iran and the Death of Advanced Civilization. 

NATO is a rules- based & democratic alliance of Free Nations, many naturally terrified of Russia, their former occupier & oppressor.

NATO clearly the very opposite of “Terrorist Criminal” Russia China Iran.

[Fanta]

23 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

Anger in Japan as Ukraine links Emperor Hirohito to Adolf Hitler

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/anger-in-japan-as-ukraine-links-emperor-hirohito-to-adolf-hitler

The Ukrainian government has forgotten or maybe didn't know that the wartime Emperor's decedents are still the Sovereign in Japan. 

I see your Ukrainian government rant and raise you the Australia Defense Minister currently on the campaign trail with the Prime Minister. 

Mr Dutton also directly compared Russian President Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler and again suggested China was on a similar path to Germany in the 1930s in the lead up to World War II. 

“The only way you can preserve peace is to prepare for war, and to be strong as a country, not to cower or be on bended knee or be weak. That's the reality." 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-25/peter-dutton-anzac-day-china-russia-nazi-germany/101013116

[oldschooler]

17 minutes ago, Grumpish said:

Historically they are correct - there was a pact, the Tripartite Pact between Japan, Germany and Italy, signed in 1940. Somewhat tactless to use it in the propaganda war just now, though.

Agreed. Japs needed against China. Don’t need to like them. Their true nature exposed 1933-45. By doing nothing Jap. Emperor complicit in all filthy Jap. WW2 war crimes. 
After CCP China gone the Jap. Menace will be dealt with permanently….

[Poolie]

26 minutes ago, Transam said:

So what....?

Same with the UK when we needed help during WW2, took over 40 years to pay it back...

Ancient history.

[Fanta]

37 minutes ago, Transam said:

So what....?

Same with the UK when we needed help during WW2, took over 40 years to pay it back...

I had previously asked the question if weapons sent to Ukraine were donated or had to be paid for via a Lend Lease type deal and no-one knew. Do try to keep up. 

[Poolie]

44 minutes ago, Transam said:

Same with the UK when we needed help during WW2, took over 40 years to pay it back...

 

15 minutes ago, Transam said:

2006.....

Short memory.

[PBS]

23 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I see your Ukrainian government rant and raise you the Australia Defense Minister currently on the campaign trail with the Prime Minister. 

Mr Dutton also directly compared Russian President Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler and again suggested China was on a similar path to Germany in the 1930s in the lead up to World War II. 

“The only way you can preserve peace is to prepare for war, and to be strong as a country, not to cower or be on bended knee or be weak. That's the reality." 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-25/peter-dutton-anzac-day-china-russia-nazi-germany/101013116

Dutton (Oz Defense Minister) is beating the drums of war. Just politcal noise BS from Dutton and Co for the upcoming Federal Election. 

[Smithydog]

9 hours ago, Fanta said:

I am not excusing or condemning this, just trying to form my own opinion. Moving them deep inside Russia can be seen at suppressing the plight of innocents in war from ordinary Russians. Passports, ID cards - I don’t know. Taking them without issuing a replacement ID means tens of thousands undocumented people in country. Evacuate by a 3rd party? Neither side, understandably, trusts the any side and the Russians have clearly decided to take these matters into their own hands. The Russians will claim it is a humanitarian gesture while the MSM will claim it is hostage taking. There are pro Russia allegations that Azov soldiers attacked a known humanitarian convoy in Mariupol. If the Russians believe that how can they be expected to trust the Ukrainians to evacuate non combatants? I wouldn’t. Question:  Why burden yourself with 40,000+ of “the enemy” if you can just abandon them on their own soil? That’s the bit I don’t understand if we are expected to believe the MSM’s portrayal of this as a heinous act.

Under what International Law does Russia, or any country, have rights to issue any "replacement" identification to non-Russian citizens?

According to the UNHCR, Poland has taken in 2.9 million refugees from Ukraine into its country compared to the 600K of Russia. Combined Russia and Belarus total 628K whilst the "western" nations total near 5 million. Yet the only Polish requirement seems to be to apply to get a PESEL number, which is a requirement for all staying 2 months or longer. They don't seem to be "replacing" identification.

https://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine

https://www.migrant.info.pl/rules-for-the-stay-on-the-territory-of-poland-of-citizens-of-ukraine-and-their-spouses-who-are-not-citizens-of-ukraine-who-enter.html

Where is the equivalent Russian transparency, for all to see and measure, on what they are doing and the support they offer? One could sarcastically say their IT people are too busy creating false narratives.

I would agree it would seem unusual to just abandon the people on their own soil. However, trust in the Russian motive is not high based on their current actions and also previous events taken in the Crimea. This includes the report by Vladimir Putin’s own Council on the Development of Civil Society and Human Rights on its observations of Crimea. Why should anyone now believe what Russia says?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/?sh=614c9c8cf172

[oldschooler]

12 hours ago, EdwardV said:

You quoted me, but you didn’t answer the question. How is NATO being aggressive? Please don’t tell me about Kosovo or Libya, that’s ancient history. We are talking about Ukraine, how are they being aggressive in connection to Ukraine? 

NATO have “psyched out” Putin and led him by his tyrant ego into a giant bear trap. Since their 2008 “ welcome mat” to Ukraine (never to be completed so Russia combatted outside NATO) NATO have cleverly been making Putin “ feel” increasingly “ threatened” by NATO “ expansion & encirclement”.

Ukraine understandably leaning to EU has further enraged Putin in this regard (so cementing the NATO plan).  

NATO & Ukraine knowing very well Ukraine would be invaded and wrecked as a minimum consequence (although this was always going to happen in any event). 

End Game to weaken & reduce Russia by twin Sanctions / Aid program, is in progress. 

Is that NATO being “ aggressive” ?

I would hope so as you really don’t want a military body protecting Western Civilization that is NOT aggressive (in a controlled manner)!

Today the other impossible Ukraine Dream (and Putin Nightmare) of joining EU predictably vetoed by Austria ….but could easily have been France ……or other