News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

         I believe Germany is a little apprehensive about a third campaign in the East in a little over 100 years. One war broke their emerging empire and the second destroyed their country.  I believe Germany has a breaking pint here. 

That seems more likely then the statement from their foreign minister that Germany cannot send heavier weapons because it will impact their military capabilities.

However, as the German army has run out of military hardware it can dispatch swiftly without undermining its own security commitments, the Green politician said her government had agreed instead a swap system whereby it would help refill the gaps in the arsenal of Nato and G7 states that are in a position to help Ukraine more quickly.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/20/german-foreign-minister-defends-delay-in-sending-armoured-vehicles-to-ukraine 

 

[EdwardV]

5 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

see their dollar losing it's value even more;

The funny thing about the dollar is most Americans don’t really pay attention to its value against other currencies. Besides the fact the dollar is holding its value pretty well, and in times of world crisis foreign capital flows into US Treasury certificates. See the US has the lowest level of imports/exports as a percentage of GDP of any major country in the world. Even then almost half of that is tied up with Mexico and Canada. Then you add in things like it’s a major exporter of food and a net exporter of energy. You can see why the average Americans is insulted from dollar fluctuations. Yes inflation will hurt. However, besides what Biden claims most of that has little to do with the war. Has much more to do with US monetary policy over the last several years. 

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

These polls who support war against Russia are designed by the same media who present a 100% one-sided picture. I am not so sure if the American people are willing to drop further in livign standard; see their dollar losing it's value even more; see prices on everything go up up up and vitness even more homeless in their cities. 

    For the most the US Congress IS "bipartisan" and so are most of the politicians. They support highest bidder and the so-called "democracy" there is a joke. 

Western Polls are commissioned in concept by media,  institutes or govt but “ designed” in detail by accountable technical specialists.

Democracy as “ least worse” form of govt ,is naturally flawed everywhere but infinitely better in advanced societies than any alternative.

[Santa]

4 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Ukraine has been asking for Western tanks. They are tired of fact when Russia tanks get hit, they have a bad habit of killing the entire crew at the same time. 

All tanks brew up after getting hit. No such thing as a bullet proof tank. Tanks are old fashioned warfare and this confrontation certainly proves that fact. This war is going to be a wake up call to many armies around the world and their ways of conducting warfare.

[Smithydog]

30 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

These polls who support war against Russia are designed by the same media who present a 100% one-sided picture. I am not so sure if the American people are willing to drop further in livign standard; see their dollar losing it's value even more; see prices on everything go up up up and vitness even more homeless in their cities. 

    For the most the US Congress IS "bipartisan" and so are most of the politicians. They support highest bidder and the so-called "democracy" there is a joke. 

At least they have the right to express their opinions, be it for or against and multiple times without fear of consequences. Let's look at independent polling in Russia, just for comparison with the evil western media pollsters as you describe.

"There is strong support for the military Volkov found that some 80% of respondents do support the military, but that group is by no means a monolith. He says about 50% have "definite support" without any qualms, but the other 30% have support with reservations."

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/18/1093282038/russia-war-public-opinion-polling

But the story behind getting these numbers is interesting.

"As Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep notes, doing anything independently in Russia is tricky (the government has branded the firm a foreign agent), as is conducting polls on this topic — since the government prohibits calling the invasion a war, and dissenters are arrested."

Don't hear such threats around polls being taken in the west. Perhaps you are just not used to living in any society that actually values freedom and forms of democratic rights.

[Guest1]

On 4/23/2022 at 3:12 AM, Thaidup said:

Because I instantly think of Iraq, and the invasion that led to a stable country becoming a haven for Islamic extremists and the hanging of bloke that kept all of that away

Add Libya and Syria to it. In 2 out of 3, "the bloke who kept that away", got killed.

And all of that just to protect the oil$

[EdwardV]

7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

That seems more likely then the statement from their foreign minister that Germany cannot send heavier weapons because it will impact their military capabilities.

And she’s the hawk, the PM is even more evasive. Basically they are creating an excuse that’s half straw man argument and half weasel statement. 
 

Germany can’t send tanks because Ukraine troops would need a couple of months training to use them. At the same time, it would take the German factory a couple of months to get them ready. Keeping in mind the tanks in question are not those used by the German army. They are old surplus tanks just sitting there waiting for a buyer. Somehow the German government expects people to buy this story. 

[Fanta]

Zelenskyy has repeated his empty threat about Mariupol. And it seems no reporter asked him why he refuses to order the Mariupol commander to surrender. This makes no sense to me.

”The Ukrainian leader warned that Kyiv would quit talks with Moscow if Russia destroyed "our people" surrounded in the war-torn city of Mariupol”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-24/ukraine-latest-russian-forces-fire-missiles-at-odesa/101011492

[Guest1]

32 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

The funny thing about the dollar is most Americans don’t really pay attention to its value against other currencies. Besides the fact the dollar is holding its value pretty well, and in times of world crisis foreign capital flows into US Treasury certificates. See the US has the lowest level of imports/exports as a percentage of GDP of any major country in the world. Even then almost half of that is tied up with Mexico and Canada. Then you add in things like it’s a major exporter of food and a net exporter of energy. You can see why the average Americans is insulted from dollar fluctuations. Yes inflation will hurt. However, besides what Biden claims most of that has little to do with the war. Has much more to do with US monetary policy over the last several years. 

True, as long the US$ is the world currency.

So, what do you think is the US willing to do, to keep it that way? I mean, beyond the wars in the past against countries, who have been willing to sell oil in other currencies?

Oh, and why do you think, that Airbus and other european industries, are still selling their products almost only in the Euro zone in Euro, but to the world still in US? 30 years ago it was an "argument" to create the Euro, so that they would not have to do that, any longer. Blown with the wind, huu?

[EdwardV]

24 minutes ago, Santa said:

All tanks brew up after getting hit. No such thing as a bullet proof tank. Tanks are old fashioned warfare and this confrontation certainly proves that fact. This war is going to be a wake up call to many armies around the world and their ways of conducting warfare.

 

25 minutes ago, Santa said:

All tanks brew up after getting hit. No such thing as a bullet proof tank. Tanks are old fashioned warfare and this confrontation certainly proves that fact. This war is going to be a wake up call to many armies around the world and their ways of conducting warfare.

Russian tanks have no protection between the crew and the magazine. Critical hit and the whole thing goes up like a Roman candle vaporizing the crew in the process. Modern western tanks have a heavy blast door between the crew and the magazine. In addition there are explosion vents that direct it away from the crew. Not perfect but a whole lot better. 
 

Guided anti tank rockets are not new. They have been use quite effectively since the 1972 Arab Israeli war. The Russian problem is they are not using combined arms tactics. That alone would make a huge difference. You also don’t see pictures of destroyed Russian tanks with APS systems do you? They do have them and yet those tanks don’t seem to getting destroyed. The problem for Russia is they don’t have a lot of them so only a few tanks are outfitted. The tank was originally designed to support infantry. You use a tank in the incorrect method, it’s going to get destroyed. There is nothing new to that either. 

[EdwardV]

14 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

True, as long the US$ is the world currency

Who will take the place of the US dollar? The Euro? Not since the EU confiscated deposits to pay the Greek bailout. No one trusts it anymore. Never mind there is no central bank therefore no independent monetary policy. 
 

You need three things to be the world currency. First the population has to not care about minor fluctuations in value. Second the currency has to free float, no pegging the value or manipulation. Last it must be in large enough circulation, be easily converted and traded (no currency controls). No currency in the world meets those three criteria beside the US dollar. 

[Fanta]

I’m bracing myself for the onslaught of the  Bitcoin fanatics into this thread. 

[KRLMRX]

There's a new video of civilians in the basements of a steel plant in Mariupol.

Why are they still there, given the daily announced green corridors? Do these civilians know about these corridors, given that they receive ALL the information from the Ukrainian military?

 

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Zelenskyy has repeated his empty threat about Mariupol. And it seems no reporter asked him why he refuses to order the Mariupol commander to surrender. This makes no sense to me.

”The Ukrainian leader warned that Kyiv would quit talks with Moscow if Russia destroyed "our people" surrounded in the war-torn city of Mariupol”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-24/ukraine-latest-russian-forces-fire-missiles-at-odesa/101011492

for Russia, the soldiers of the AZOV battalion are a symbol of modern anti-Russian power in Ukraine; for this power, AZOV is a symbol of Ukrainian resistance to Russia.  

I'm afraid that no one will give in, and, as always, the civilians remaining at the plant will become the victims.

[Fanta]

The Russians can only wait. Attacking will be seen as a slaughter of trapped civilians. Mariupol is now a shell of a city. The port is apparently not rubble but that looks like the only thing.

 

[Fester]

9 hours ago, EdwardV said:

It does seem strange but you also don’t see that kind of info sent out without it being pre approved either. 
 

Did you see Boris Johnson is offering to send tanks to Poland so they can send more T-72s to Ukraine? (Poland still has about 4-500 of them):
 

But he pledged to step up British support to Kyiv, saying: “We are looking more at what we can do to backfill in countries such as Poland, who may want to send heavier weaponry to help defend the Ukrainians. We are looking at sending tanks to Poland to help them as they send some of their T72s to Ukraine.”

It’s interesting because the Pols don’t know how to use the Challenger2. While they probably have the several weeks to get trained it’s still a strange offer. Unless that is it comes wrapped in a UK heavy tank brigade. Maybe it’s an excuse to do just that, get additional UK troops in theater? Or maybe it’s an effort to get the next big polish tank order hahaha. 
 

https://inews.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-says-uk-will-reopen-british-embassy-in-kyiv-in-wake-of-russian-invasion-1589024

The contract for the Challenger 3 is underway, so a few of the 2's to Poland probably makes sense.

[Fester]

3 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

These polls who support war against Russia are designed by the same media who present a 100% one-sided picture. I am not so sure if the American people are willing to drop further in livign standard; see their dollar losing it's value even more; see prices on everything go up up up and vitness even more homeless in their cities. 

    For the most the US Congress IS "bipartisan" and so are most of the politicians. They support highest bidder and the so-called "democracy" there is a joke. 

US inflation is mad and real inflation even higher than the number reported by the Fed. But the dollar itself is stronger now (DXY) than it has been for 20 years. Crazy but there it is.

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, KRLMRX said:

There's a new video of civilians in the basements of a steel plant in Mariupol.

Why are they still there, given the daily announced green corridors? Do these civilians know about these corridors, given that they receive ALL the information from the Ukrainian military?

What green corridors? If somebody wants to use them bombing starts.

[KRLMRX]

56 minutes ago, Alavan said:

What green corridors? If somebody wants to use them bombing starts.

possibly. and perhaps not.

the question is - do these civilians know about these corridors, given that they receive information only from the Ukrainian military? Is it profitable for the Ukrainian military to let civilians leave the factory?

the answers to these questions will help you understand why these peaceful people are still there.

[Marble-eye]

42 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

possibly. and perhaps not.

the question is - do these civilians know about these corridors, given that they receive information only from the Ukrainian military? Is it profitable for the Ukrainian military to let civilians leave the factory?

the answers to these questions will help you understand why these peaceful people are still there.

I believe if my life depended on believing what the Ukranians said or what the Russians said, my money would be a safer bet listening to what the Ukranians said.

The Russians have for form when it comes to lying as proven.

[Santa]

5 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Russian tanks have no protection between the crew and the magazine. Critical hit and the whole thing goes up like a Roman candle vaporizing the crew in the process. Modern western tanks have a heavy blast door between the crew and the magazine. In addition there are explosion vents that direct it away from the crew. Not perfect but a whole lot better. 
 

Guided anti tank rockets are not new. They have been use quite effectively since the 1972 Arab Israeli war. The Russian problem is they are not using combined arms tactics. That alone would make a huge difference. You also don’t see pictures of destroyed Russian tanks with APS systems do you? They do have them and yet those tanks don’t seem to getting destroyed. The problem for Russia is they don’t have a lot of them so only a few tanks are outfitted. The tank was originally designed to support infantry. You use a tank in the incorrect method, it’s going to get destroyed. There is nothing new to that either. 

I spent 12 years in the army  in a tank regiment. Of that 12 years I spent 5 years working at the AW/MVEE Kirkcudbright working on Chobham armour. Believe me when I say you can't tell me anything when it comes to tank armour protection. Been there, done it.

[NorskTiger]

4 hours ago, Fester said:

US inflation is mad and real inflation even higher than the number reported by the Fed. But the dollar itself is stronger now (DXY) than it has been for 20 years. Crazy but there it is.

The dollar is "stronger", while it is losing more and more "market share" as reserve currency. Dow Jones is record-high while living standard of the average America continues to go down. 

     Of course there ARE winners on the American contient also. Those who work for corporations in adminstrative/economic and leadership roles; big tech and defense industry contractors. 

     And as long as we have this low interest rate, the Dollar AND Wall Street indices will remain high. 

   Yes, "real inflation" is not measured in any country anymore. Energy prices, housing and taxation is going up in most of the West. 

   The Russian "communist" economy operates on a flat-tax...

[NorskTiger]

7 hours ago, Guest1 said:

True, as long the US$ is the world currency.

So, what do you think is the US willing to do, to keep it that way? I mean, beyond the wars in the past against countries, who have been willing to sell oil in other currencies?

Oh, and why do you think, that Airbus and other european industries, are still selling their products almost only in the Euro zone in Euro, but to the world still in US? 30 years ago it was an "argument" to create the Euro, so that they would not have to do that, any longer. Blown with the wind, huu?

The dollar share of world markets is getting closer to 50%. What effect long-term oil price and Middle-East following Iran and accepting other payments is anyone's guess. 

   For sure, the US empire cannot afford to grow the deficit forever, when the number of financiers decrease. 

    Me, I still think in Gold, Bitcoin, property, skillset and some cash at hand. 

[NorskTiger]

7 hours ago, Smithydog said:

At least they have the right to express their opinions, be it for or against and multiple times without fear of consequences. Let's look at independent polling in Russia, just for comparison with the evil western media pollsters as you describe.

"There is strong support for the military Volkov found that some 80% of respondents do support the military, but that group is by no means a monolith. He says about 50% have "definite support" without any qualms, but the other 30% have support with reservations."

https://www.npr.org/2022/04/18/1093282038/russia-war-public-opinion-polling

But the story behind getting these numbers is interesting.

"As Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep notes, doing anything independently in Russia is tricky (the government has branded the firm a foreign agent), as is conducting polls on this topic — since the government prohibits calling the invasion a war, and dissenters are arrested."

Don't hear such threats around polls being taken in the west. Perhaps you are just not used to living in any society that actually values freedom and forms of democratic rights.

So your message is that the people in Russia are supporting the strategy of Moscow AS "PROVEN" by a Western poll. This obviously would indicate the support is even higher than that. 

    As far as them being branded a "foreign agent". Oh well, I have also been branded similar things, even on this forum. So is he saying the poll is tricky, as in "wrong", or is he saying he got it right despite any alleged government interference? I am confused. 

     "Democracy" as of the Western model is the banking and corporate rulership of the people via lapdogs that are "democratically elected", LOL. 

[NorskTiger]

22 hours ago, EdwardV said:

To believe that you have to believe Putin is not rational. To date there is no reason to believe he is crazy or suicidal. If his intention is to recreate a Russian empire and be mentioned in the same breath as Peter the Great or Stalin (because Russian actually still think he was a great leader), then you can’t believe he would ever used nuclear weapons. Those two objectives run counter to each other. 
 

It’s nothing more than a hollow threat to shape the battlefield. To make NATO stay on one side of the border while Russia gets to do unspeakable things on the other side. It’s partially worked, but at the same time it’s blown up in his face too. It’s lead to the revitalization and strengthening of NATO and the West. It’s also lead to the further expansion of NATO with Finland and Sweden soon to join. 

 Interesting.... All I hear in Western media is that "Putin is bipolar"; "Putin has paranoia"; "Putin has cancer"; "Putin is demented". and so on and so on. 

    So good to hear that SOME on the other side seem to realize this is not some deranged lunatic. 

      As far as "hollow threat", I think you have to listen to the actual quotes in Russian to understand the real meaning. Then again, the Anglified world wants everyone to think there is no language besides English and anything is easy to translate into it.