News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Mazz11]

I wouldn't put much stock in any of Putin's talk about NATO expanding too close to Russia.

This was just a ruse to invade Ukraine and continue his plan to return this country into the Soviet empire and revive the USSR.

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, EdwardV said:

That presupposes NATO started the war with the express purpose of bleeding out the Russian army, and by extension accelerating it's eventual demographic collapse. Problem is NATO didn’t start the war, didn’t force Putin to invade, and could have just as easily waited Russia out. 

NATO Didn’t force or start invasion but deliberately & cleverly pushed all Putins trigger points since 2008 and earlier with nato“ expansion”, partnerships, training.All reasonable & expected NATO defensive duties from rational western view but not from stupid & paranoid Russian View. 
Putin subtly pressured over time & walked right into the NATO Ukraine “ bear trap” (as China will do in Taiwan…)

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

NATO Didn’t force or start invasion but deliberately & cleverly pushed all Putins trigger points since 2008 and earlier with nato“ expansion”, partnerships, training.All reasonable & expected NATO defensive duties from rational western view but not from stupid & paranoid Russian View. 
Putin subtly pressured over time & walked right into the NATO Ukraine “ bear trap” (as China will do in Taiwan…)

So NATO goaded Russia into battle and Ukraine is the killing field. That begs the question will NATO leave the Ukrainian forces alone to fight NATO’s battle while cheering them on from the safety of their corner?

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

NATO Didn’t force or start invasion but deliberately & cleverly pushed all Putins trigger points since 2008 and earlier with nato“ expansion”, partnerships, training.All reasonable & expected NATO defensive duties from rational western view but not from stupid & paranoid Russian View. 
Putin subtly pressured over time & walked right into the NATO Ukraine “ bear trap” (as China will do in Taiwan…)

Not that I disagree much with this but surely NATO role is not to be pushing the buttons of anyone or setting traps for countries to fall into?

It's likely why some people look at NATO as being unnecessarily aggressive and as an American mouthpiece whilst all the while Ukrainians suffer for it. 

Putin undoubtedly needs to go but it can't be NATO decides 

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, vlad said:

An ironic quote that relating to Zelensky having no political experience. Wasn't Ronald Reagan a Hollywood actor?  and Trump was a game show host on the Apprentice?

Point is not having political experience means not corrupt, a huge attraction for voters in USA & Ukraine ! Or anywhere else very corrupt I suppose…..

[francoa]

If anyone doubts why this whole mess has happened, it was because USA wanted it and helped it ;)

[oldschooler]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Not that I disagree much with this but surely NATO role is not to be pushing the buttons of anyone or setting traps for countries to fall into?

It's likely why some people look at NATO as being unnecessarily aggressive and as an American mouthpiece whilst all the while Ukrainians suffer for it. 

Putin undoubtedly needs to go but it can't be NATO decides 

NATO is Defensive (not Passive).
Best form of Defence is ….? Attack. Best form of Attack ? Asymmetric ( Indirect) Warfare with Deception, Intelligence Gathering, Provocation, Unity of Alliance. 

Sun Tzu said “ know yourself and your enemy and never lose in 100 battles”.

NATO Aware & Comply =can never be Defeated. 

Putin did not know himself nor his “ enemy” = inevitable Defeat. 

Ukraine was always as a minimum going to get Physically Wrecked by Paranoid Russia as “ threat” so unavoidable as NATO or Ukraine could not prevent that.

NATO have enabled Ukraine to avoid the higher Russian Objectives there of Control & Neutralize.

[Freeduhdumb]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

You missed the other important word: “member”. 
 

Putin is going to turn into the number one recruiter for NATO. No doubt the irony is lost on him. 

There would be no need to begin operating in fear of the great Russian Aggression if NATO had done its job from the beginning... IT HASN'T. NATO is a complete failure. 

You haven't put the inception of NATO into context friend... why was NATO created in the first place? It was created as a treaty organization to mitigate the Soviet Union. Why are states again embracing Russia. Belarus, the many stans, such as Kazakstan, and yes Ukraine, just to name a few. Ukraine sided with Russia in 2014, for their own democratic reasons and the engineered coup de tat, regime change operation that was the reaction of the "West" (and resultant failure to fully implement the Minks II agreements) that followed IS the catalyst of why and where we are today (war). So again... They've (NATO as a failed treaty organization failing there own mission statement) failed. That mission statement of conflict resolution/mitigation that again can be found on their website has been a complete failure to its member states. The members of that organization need to find another solution... what is occurring right now is a COMPLETE FAILURE... 

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

There would be no need to begin operating in fear of the great Russian Aggression if NATO had done its job from the beginning... IT HASN'T. NATO is a complete failure. 

You haven't put the inception of NATO into context friend... why was NATO created in the first place? It was created as a treaty organization to mitigate the Soviet Union. Why are states again embracing Russia. Belarus, the many stans, such as Kazakstan, and yes Ukraine, just to name a few. Ukraine sided with Russia in 2014, for their own democratic reasons and the engineered coup de tat, regime change operation that was the reaction of the "West" (and resultant failure to fully implement the Minks II agreements) that followed IS the catalyst of why and where we are today (war). So again... They've (NATO as a failed treaty organization failing there own mission statement) failed. That mission statement of conflict resolution/mitigation that again can be found on their website has been a complete failure to its member states. The members of that organization need to find another solution... what is occurring right now is a COMPLETE FAILURE... 

Analysis & Conclusions all Wrong. 
Conflict Now Unavoidable as means to Resolve Later / Greater Conflict. 

NATO a Complete Success. 
NATO originally assumed Russia would be reasonable. Putin is not rational by western definition so must be handled as irrational…… and has been. 

[oldschooler]

10 minutes ago, francoa said:

If anyone doubts why this whole mess has happened, it was because USA wanted it and helped it ;)

Putin an irrational existential threat to Civilized Europe / World. NATO set the Ukraine Trap ….. and Putin Fell In.
“ Mess” created by Russia who failed to partition Ukraine for 1991 independence….. 

[oldschooler]

38 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So NATO goaded Russia into battle and Ukraine is the killing field. That begs the question will NATO leave the Ukrainian forces alone to fight NATO’s battle while cheering them on from the safety of their corner?

Clearly NATO cannot engage directly with Russia over Ukraine and so risk Nuclear WW3. NATO therefore engaging maximally Indirectly. NATO need now to provide Heavy Weapons for Ukraine to win imminent Donbass Battle and so, the War.

[Freeduhdumb]

8 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Analysis & Conclusions all Wrong. 
Conflict Now Unavoidable as means to Resolve Later / Greater Conflict. 

NATO a Complete Success. 
NATO originally assumed Russia would be reasonable. Putin is not rational by western definition so must be handled as irrational…… and has been. 

Hey friend... there's this thing called The Truth... you might want to look into that one... it is the truth that sets us free... Good Luck. 

[Fanta]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Putin undoubtedly needs to go but it can't be NATO decides

Why? Russia was an economic basket case when Putin took over and the average Russian’s quality of life since has greatly improved in the last 20 years. Perhaps a better question is “who is going to replace Putin and is capable of handling it’s enemies, it’s military, the economy,  the ultra rich etc etc”

Maybe it’s better to live with the Devil you know than the angel you don’t? Sometimes I miss my ex-wife ;-)

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Hey friend... there's this thing called The Truth... you might want to look into that one... it is the truth that sets us free... Good Luck. 

Truth = Facts Evidenced by Reason -Logic - Science - Probability. All Else is Delusion / Pseudo Science / False Belief.

So ask yourself what are the Odds that you see Truth without following above established process AND I don’t by complying said process  ?

You also don’t challenge my reasoning but respond critically with …..nothing. 
 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

Why? Russia was an economic basket case when Putin took over and the average Russian’s quality of life since has greatly improved in the last 20 years. Perhaps a better question is “who is going to replace Putin and is capable of handling it’s enemies, it’s military, the economy,  the ultra rich etc etc”

Maybe it’s better to live with the Devil you know than the angel you don’t? Sometimes I miss my ex-wife ;-)

I just think the Russians deserve a better and more just leader to take them forward. 

Not denying he's done well economically and generally improved the lives of most Russians evidenced by the amount we've seen abroad over the last ten years.

Yes they could end up with worse but could also end up with someone who is better for them also. 

That's up to them to decide though,  no one else

[oldschooler]

8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Why? Russia was an economic basket case when Putin took over and the average Russian’s quality of life since has greatly improved in the last 20 years. Perhaps a better question is “who is going to replace Putin and is capable of handling it’s enemies, it’s military, the economy,  the ultra rich etc etc”

Maybe it’s better to live with the Devil you know than the angel you don’t? Sometimes I miss my ex-wife ;-)

Critically here Russians don’t have any idea how or with what to replace Putin. 
Helpless Nationalistic Gullible Children their entire 1000 year history, wetting themselves with joy for their “Strong Leaders”.

[oldschooler]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

I just think the Russians deserve a better and more just leader to take them forward. 

Not denying he's done well economically and generally improved the lives of most Russians evidenced by the amount we've seen abroad over the last ten years.

Yes they could end up with worse but could also end up with someone who is better for them also. 

That's up to them to decide though,  no one else

Culture & Institutions & Mindset have never existed there to produce “ someone better”. 
Immoral Corrupt Gangster Thieving Terror State from conception, made even worse by Communism then Putin, unless somehow Russia simply collapses & US / UK / France are able to reset everything properly as done after WW2 with Germany & Japan. 

[Marble-eye]

Since Putins invasion of Ukraine his popularity rating has reached a high of 83% which might show that most Russians are not repulsed by their leaders actions in Ukraine, what a sad day for the human race.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, oldschooler said:

Culture & Institutions & Mindset have never existed there to produce “ someone better”. 
Immoral Corrupt Gangster Thieving Terror State from conception, made even worse by Communism then Putin, unless somehow Russia simply collapses & US / UK / France are able to reset everything properly as done after WW2 with Germany & Japan. 

Not yet no but people and countries can change if enough people are willing to change it can't they?

They've had revolutions before

We can all live in hope that life can change for the better. 

Better than this shit today anyway

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Not yet no but people and countries can change if enough people are willing to change it can't they?

They've had revolutions before

We can all live in hope that life can change for the better. 

Better than this shit today anyway

Their sole “ revolution” came from outside & replaced one tyranny with  another. Even when that collapsed they went full tyranny again.
Can’t see any indication that these sheeplike people can revolutionize. Ukraine war motivated only 4,000 protesters from 144 million. Looks hopeless unless in 70-100 years the whole rotten edifice collapses somehow. 

[NorskTiger]

7 hours ago, vlad said:

Here you go again Tiger mentioning NATO  in your posts give it up were not interested in NATO until it enters Ukraine.

The "only things" NATO is doing is providing Ukraine with arms to keep it up.; provide political support for the president to keep his own people dying and provide more fuel to the overall conflict by opening another pressure point in the Nordic region. 

   Oh, I forgot the POW's of NATO nation origins, some who allegedly have Western intel ties. 

   Besides all that, they are not doing anything. 

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

So NATO goaded Russia into battle and Ukraine is the killing field. That begs the question will NATO leave the Ukrainian forces alone to fight NATO’s battle while cheering them on from the safety of their corner?

Besides the fact NATO didn’t goad anyone into anything, surely Putin can make his own decisions. It’s not NATO’s battle they didn’t get attacked. That aside, it’s pretty clear NATO has every intention of seeing this through. They understand the dangers of not doing so. 

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

It's likely why some people look at NATO as being unnecessarily aggressive and as an American mouthpiece whilst all the while Ukrainians suffer for it. 

How is NATO being aggressive? If anything they have been too passive. NATO is hardly an American mouthpiece, Biden has clearly been leading from behind since day one. Ukrainian suffering can only be attributed to one person and that’s Putin. 

[Fanta]

17 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Besides the fact NATO didn’t goad anyone into anything, surely Putin can make his own decisions. It’s not NATO’s battle they didn’t get attacked. That aside, it’s pretty clear NATO has every intention of seeing this through. They understand the dangers of not doing so. 

I should have been clearer. I was summarizing oldschooler’s belief that NATO wants this war, not personally claiming that NATO provoked this war. And it’s pretty clear that everyone will have to see this through. My question is how far will NATO go? That cannot be answered because without a crystal ball so we can’t know at this stage.

[JohnC]

55 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

How is NATO being aggressive? If anything they have been too passive. NATO is hardly an American mouthpiece, Biden has clearly been leading from behind since day one. Ukrainian suffering can only be attributed to one person and that’s Putin. 

I was responding to the old fellas claim re NATO setting traps for countries etc which in my opinion is not what NATO should be about and why some people might deem it to be aggressively expanding 

I'd imagine by the sheer amount of money and weapons America provides NATO they would have the biggest say in how its run anyway 

I'd agree the Ukrainian suffering is down to Putin no doubt