House and Land ownership for widower

[JScoobyCed]

I have tried to find answers in this forum and outside and things are not 100% clear.

What are the options for a widower (married 18 years to a Thai wife, having +10 years unbroken non-immigrant business visa and work-permit, although different companies, but always via BOI), without children, to be able to keep the house and land they have been living in for more than 10 years?

I read that Permanent Residency allows you to have your name in a blue Tabien Baan (House registration), but I can't find anything related to what happens to the land on which the house is built. It is currently to the name of the widower's wife (on the deed of property / Chanot Baan).

PS: I am new here and I hope I am posting in the correct section.

[Chatogaster]

History doesn't matter (no credits build up over the years). The only option I see relies fully on the goodwill of the (Thai) inheritors, see https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html 

[Chatogaster]

7 minutes ago, Chatogaster said:

History doesn't matter (no credits build up over the years). The only option I see relies fully on the goodwill of the (Thai) inheritors, see https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html 

Maybe I should have highlighted the relevant part:

 

 

Any foreigner who is married to a Thai national is under section 1629 Civil and Commercial Code a statutory heir (i.e heirs who are so entitled by Thai law) and it seems that he can apply for permission of ownership of inherited land from his Thai spouse pursuant to section 93 of the Land Code Act. But ownership will not be given to the foreign spouse. The over fifty year old Section 93 of the Land Code Act is written for inheritance of land by foreigners under a treaty (section 86 of the Land Code Act) and does not apply to foreigners acquiring land by inheritance from a Thai spouse. There is currently no treaty with any country allowing any foreigners to own land therefore no Minister of Interior will or can give permission to any foreigner to own land in Thailand. Note that it is only since 1999 that Thai nationals married to a foreigner are legally allowed to acquire land (read up).

The answer to the question 'can a foreigner inherit land in Thailand' is yes, as a statutory heir, but he cannot register ownership of the land because he will not be given permission. Under present law he must dispose of the land within a reasonable period (meaning up to 1 year) to a Thai national. If the foreigner fails to dispose of the land the Director-General of the Land Department is authorized to dispose of the land and retain a fee of 5% of the sale price before any deductions or taxes.

 

[Santa]

You are allowed to inherit land but you have then 1 year to sell it or give it away. I always wondered if the same law/rule applies to a farang woman married to a Thai male?

In Thailand a married farang woman doesn't have to show money to remain here. I find this law to be complete bollix and one-sided.

[Guest1]

I know, it works with buying, not certain if it would work in this case. But trying to get a loan from a bank, giving the land (and house?) as pledge would get the bank as the minimum 70% Thai in the deed. Which would allow more time (till all paid back), to find a new  and trustable Thai person or a buyer.

[JScoobyCed]

Thank you for the replies. I guess it's time to sell their house.

[JScoobyCed]

Actually now getting to read the Land Code Act, and Section 93 says he can keep the land and house if the area is within range described in Section 87:

"Section 87: The amount of land which may be permitted under the preceding Section is as follows:

(1) For residence, per family, not more than 1 rai
(2) For commerce, not more than 1 rai
(3) For industry, not more than 10 rais
(4) For agriculture, not more than 10 rais
(5) For religion, not more than 1 rai
(6) For public charity, not more than 5 rai
(7) For burial, per family, not more than rai The Council of Ministers may, if they think fit, permit an alien to acquire more land for industry than that prescribed in (3) under such conditions as they may impose. The provisions of Section 48 shall apply mutatis mutandis."

 

"Section 90: Aliens who have received permission to hold and use land for any purpose if no longer using the land or if using it for another purpose without receiving new permission, shall dispose of such land within the time limit prescribed by the Director-General which shall not be less than one hundred eighty days nor more than one yea r. If such time it exceeded, the Director-General shall have the power to dispose of the land."

"Section 93: The Minister shall permit the inheritance of land by an alien who is the lawful heir, but such acquisition when added to that which s already held may not exceed the amount which may be held under Section 87."

 

Section 90 refers to the selling within 1 year only if the usage of the land is not in accordance with the original purpose (i.e. from Section 87). His land is much less than 1 rai, and he would use for the purpose of residence. Now he has no children, not sure the term "family" would be applicable.

[Faz]

3 hours ago, JScoobyCed said:

It is currently to the name of the widower's wife (on the deed of property / Chanot Baan).

Under Thailand's laws of ascension the legally married spouse becomes the automatic heir. However a foreigner cannot be named on the land deed.

Foreign land ownership by succession

 

The answer to the question 'can a foreigner inherit land in Thailand' is yes, as a statutory heir, but he cannot register ownership of the land because he will not be given permission. Under present law he must dispose of the land within a reasonable period (meaning up to 1 year) to a Thai national. If the foreigner fails to dispose of the land the Director-General of the Land Department is authorized to dispose of the land and retain a fee of 5% of the sale price before any deductions or taxes.
https://www.samuiforsale.com/knowledge/inheritance-laws-thailand.html

I assume its a friend your enquiring for. In the event of his passing who would be next in line to inherit the estate? The deceased wife Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, Cousin?
That should be the Thai person to turn to register the land under, but to protect his right to continue living in the home until his death, he should consult a lawyer.

Options are available to protect his rights in conjunction with the person that will be named on the land deeds. https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/3242-usufructs-superficies-and-habitation-legalities/#comment-25760

 

[Faz]

25 minutes ago, JScoobyCed said:

"Section 93: The Minister shall permit the inheritance of land by an alien who is the lawful heir, but such acquisition when added to that which s already held may not exceed the amount which may be held under Section 87."

Section 90 refers to the selling within 1 year only if the usage of the land is not in accordance with the original purpose (i.e. from Section 87). His land is much less than 1 rai, and he would use for the purpose of residence. Now he has no children, not sure the term "family" would be applicable.

The over fifty year old Section 93 of the Land Code Act is written for inheritance of land by foreigners under a treaty (section 86 of the Land Code Act) and does not apply to foreigners acquiring land by inheritance from a Thai spouse. There is currently no treaty with any country allowing any foreigners to own land therefore no Minister of Interior will or can give permission to any foreigner to own land in Thailand.
Thai Inheritance laws: last will and succession in Thailand (samuiforsale.com)
 

58 minutes ago, JScoobyCed said:

Thank you for the replies. I guess it's time to sell their house.

He can't sign it over as he isn't named on the land deed. You really need to consult a lawyer on his options before the 12 month period expires and the land is reclaimed and sold by the Land department.

[JScoobyCed]

I see, I missed that (although I am not sure what this treaty is about).  

 

9 minutes ago, Faz said:

He can't sign it over as he isn't named on the land deed. You really need to consult a lawyer on his options before the 12 month period expires and the land is reclaimed and sold by the Land department.

He will become executor of estate (process in progress) so he will be able to sell or assign the house to his wife family. Not sure when the 12 months start/end. Is it at the date his wife passed away? Or the date he become executor of estate?

But I guess if it was indeed possible for a foreigner to own a property (land and house) it would be known and documented.

 

[HolyCowCm]

What about making an agreement prior to shifting the poperty off to a family member as in agreement by the Thai family member to sign off on a Userfruct? Also the house if was bulit and paid for by the foreinger will be legally part his wouldn't it be?, that is if he can prove the funds came from him? I am signed in on my house on legal documents.

Anyway the OP can make an agrement that can live there till death on a Userfruct and then if it is a couple/few decades later of life (Userfruct is good for 30 years?) then just say that the Thai person's children will be the lucky one's to get the home and land. Otherwise the OP can say screw you and then sell the proerty to someone else and game over. Use leverage if it is needed and go rent somewhere or buy a condo.

 

 

[JScoobyCed]

 

17 minutes ago, HolyCowCm said:

What about making an agreement prior to shifting the poperty off to a family member as in agreement by the Thai family member to sign off on a Userfruct? Also the house if was bulit and paid for by the foreinger will be legally part his wouldn't it be?, that is if he can prove the funds came from him? I am signed in on my house on legal documents.

Anyway the OP can make an agrement that can live their till death on a Userfruct and then if it is a couple decades later of life (Userfruct is good for 30 years?) then just say that the Thai person's children will be the lucky one's to get the home and land. Otherwise the OP can say screw you and then sell the proerty to someone else and game over. Use leverage if it is needed and go rent somewhere or buy a condo.

I will let him know to look at this Userfruct thing.

He did paid for the house, but there is no document to prove it (the house loan was automatically debited from the bank account of his wife, even though he put the money on the bank account)

 

 And yes, at the end, if he gets to be the executor of estate, he can still decide to sell if nothing else works.

 

 

[HolyCowCm]

19 minutes ago, JScoobyCed said:

I will let him know to look at this Userfruct thing.

He did paid for the house, but there is no document to prove it (the house loan was automatically debited from the bank account of his wife, even though he put the money on the bank account)

 And yes, at the end, if he gets to be the executor of estate, he can still decide to sell if nothing else works.

If he loves living there then he needs to pursue it to protect him as in a way like that. Otherwise sometimes a change of scenery and atmosphere is nice too.

[Benroon]

On 4/16/2022 at 3:52 PM, HolyCowCm said:

What about making an agreement prior to shifting the poperty off to a family member as in agreement by the Thai family member to sign off on a Userfruct? Also the house if was bulit and paid for by the foreinger will be legally part his wouldn't it be?, that is if he can prove the funds came from him? I am signed in on my house on legal documents.

 

Is the correct answer - usufructs are even better than leases as they can be specified as 'for life'. This will all boil down to how good a relationship he has with the remaining members of the family. A good lawyer, ie don't get one on the cheap, will be critical. They do exist.

Me personally, I think I would sell it to avoid the hassle and any future potential legal wrangles down the line.

[Santa]

On 4/16/2022 at 6:57 PM, Guest1 said:

But trying to get a loan from a bank, giving the land (and house?) as pledge would get the bank as the minimum 70% Thai in the deed. Which would allow more time (till all paid back), to find a new  and trustable Thai person or a buyer.

Banks will not give out a loan on Sor Por Kor  land.

[JScoobyCed]

13 hours ago, Benroon said:

Is the correct answer - usufructs are even better than leases as they can be specified as 'for life'. This will all boil down to how good a relationship he has with the remaining members of the family. A good lawyer, ie don't get one on the cheap, will be critical. They do exist.

Me personally, I think I would sell it to avoid the hassle and any future potential legal wrangles down the line.

Thank you. We were busy to get some other paperwork done.

He has great relationship with his family in law and I think that would be possible option.

We're evaluating a lawyer that is helping doing the executor of estates stuff, let's see how good he is.

[Benroon]

12 hours ago, JScoobyCed said:

Thank you. We were busy to get some other paperwork done.

He has great relationship with his family in law and I think that would be possible option.

We're evaluating a lawyer that is helping doing the executor of estates stuff, let's see how good he is.

Excellent - if in any doubt then take any documents to a translation service, not usually expensive, so you're not intimidated by reams of thai language (forgive me if you're a fluent reader!)

But it sounds positively like everyone's on board, despite what you read about thai families on forums, there are many many good ones.

[Thaidup]

6 hours ago, Benroon said:

But it sounds positively like everyone's on board, despite what you read about thai families on forums, there are many many good ones.

LOL, My wife told me she wrote a will and who to ask for it, that states I can live in the house and her family should take care of me.

[HolyCowCm]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:14 PM, JScoobyCed said:

I will let him know to look at this Userfruct thing.

He did paid for the house, but there is no document to prove it (the house loan was automatically debited from the bank account of his wife, even though he put the money on the bank account)

 And yes, at the end, if he gets to be the executor of estate, he can still decide to sell if nothing else works.

Just will reply you here to keep along our conversation as I saw you were talking down below here answering someone else.

Hope the Userfruct works out for the best. Let me or us know what happens as I love a story that ends well.. Cheers.