News Forum - Large Russian war ship struck, abandoned to flames in Black Sea

[Marble-eye]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Word games about word games.  Your aside is a poor example of propaganda because  “surely they must know they'll be caught out and made to look bigger fools than they already are.” 

Interesting read that Wikipedia page

Renee Hobbs identified four characteristic design features of many forms of contemporary propaganda: (1) it activates strong emotions; (2) it simplifies information; (3) it appeals to the hopes, fears, and dreams of a targeted audience; and (4) it attacks opponents.^[44]

Well they were indeed caught out with their lies, on the very first day as it happened, it is usually intelligent people that is put in charge of propaganda and it usually fools the people for more than just a few hours, would that be a fair statement?

So apart from killing people, raping and pillaging we have yet to find out what Putin is actually good at.

But I apologize if you find my calling of Putin and his thugs offensive, but the truth can hurt some people.

I haven't a clue who Renee Hobbs is, did he play the barman in Allo Allo?

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, KRLMRX said:

it was about the "decision-making centers in Kyiv." it is strange why they were not attacked before, but such are the statements of the RF Ministry of Defense.

It’s strange the Russians are bombing Kyiv and still not attacking the decision making centers. Go figure. 
 

in other news Russia is threatening America with “unpredictable consequences" if they don’t stop sending weapons to Ukraine. Of course the official threat was done the day before the US announced $800M more in weapons including helicopters and heavy artillery. So much for threats. What they heck does unpredictable consequences mean?

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Well they were indeed caught out with their lies, on the very first day as it happened, it is usually intelligent people that is put in charge of propaganda and it usually fools the people for more than just a few hours, would that be a fair statement?

So apart from killing people, raping and pillaging we have yet to find out what Putin is actually good at.

But I apologize if you find my calling of Putin and his thugs offensive, but the truth can hurt some people.

I haven't a clue who Renee Hobbs is, did he play the barman in Allo Allo?

If you had bothered to read the Wikipedia page I had linked to, you would have noted that propaganda in war time is used to boost morale at home and lower it abroad. If the real truth is not openly acknowledged at home, how can the masses learn otherwise, and when they do, wouldn’t they be shouted down for saying it? Or accused of treason? And you would have learnt also who Renee Hobbs is if you had read the Wikipedia page. 

Putin is clearly good at saving his meager government wage to buy a multi million dollar yacht to park near one of his mansions. I have no issues with you calling the Russians any names. I do have issues with myself being called an apologist, an appeaser or the implication that I support Putin’s war simply because I won’t swallow the same propaganda funneled through MSM that others gorge themselves on with never a thought as to if the stuff is actually as wholesome as advertised.

[Fanta]

25 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

What they heck does unpredictable consequences mean?

Sanctions? such as a reduction or turning off the oil and gas to Europe. That might explain why Zelenskyy has publicly cooled on Germany. More than likely, it’s just more nuclear saber rattling.

[Marble-eye]

13 minutes ago, Fanta said:

If you had bothered to read the Wikipedia page I had linked to, you would have noted that propaganda in war time is used to boost morale at home and lower it abroad. If the real truth is not openly acknowledged at home, how can the masses learn otherwise, and when they do, wouldn’t they be shouted down for saying it? Or accused of treason? And you would have learnt also who Renee Hobbs is if you had read the Wikipedia page. 

Putin is clearly good at saving his meager government wage to buy a multi million dollar yacht to park near one of his mansions. I have no issues with you calling the Russians any names. I do have issues with myself being called an apologist, an appeaser or the implication that I support Putin’s war simply because I won’t swallow the same propaganda funneled through MSM that others gorge themselves on with never a thought as to if the stuff is actually as wholesome as advertised.

Propaganda is another name for a lie, simple as, same as fake news, guess what it is a lie too. And no I couldn't be bothered reading Wicki, should I wish to refer to a lie being a lie I will use the word lie, propaganda may be a less sensitive word to you when someone calls Putin out but at the end of the day he is lying!

As for anyone on here being one of Putins apologists, I can only say that they only appear when some-one mentions anything about the vile man himself and if one should say the exact same of Ukraine they tend to remain stum.

But at the end of the day you would not be forced to swallow any lies if the Russian Forces had not illegally invaded Ukraine and started that many believe to be a systematic genocide of the Ukranian people, most people would see this and be automatically sympathetic to the underdogs who are being slaughtered on a daily basis and not worry about trivialities.

 

[Fanta]

32 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Propaganda is another name for a lie, simple as, same as fake news, guess what it is a lie too. And no I couldn't be bothered reading Wicki, should I wish to refer to a lie being a lie I will use the word lie, propaganda may be a less sensitive word to you when someone calls Putin out but at the end of the day he is lying!

As for anyone on here being one of Putins apologists, I can only say that they only appear when some-one mentions anything about the vile man himself and if one should say the exact same of Ukraine they tend to remain stum.

But at the end of the day you would not be forced to swallow any lies if the Russian Forces had not illegally invaded Ukraine and started that many believe to be a systematic genocide of the Ukranian people, most people would see this and be automatically sympathetic to the underdogs who are being slaughtered on a daily basis and not worry about trivialities.

Final words -  I am sympathetic to Ukraine and have expressed this many times. I don’t constantly voice my distaste at this war and it’s horrors because, once expressed, it adds nothing to a discussion. I am here to discuss and debate alternate points of view and learn some things,  not to insult people or shout them down because I don’t agree with them. btw - the truth is never trivial. 

[Marble-eye]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Final words -  I am sympathetic to Ukraine and have expressed this many times. I don’t constantly voice my distaste at this war and it’s horrors because, once expressed, it adds nothing to a discussion. I am here to discuss and debate alternate points of view and learn some things,  not to insult people or shout them down because I don’t agree with them. btw - the truth is never trivial. 

"btw - the truth is never trivial." 

Arguing the definition of a 'lie' is! 

[Alavan]

18 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

The Russian Defense Ministry announced the day before yesterday that it would strike at decision-making centers, including in Kyiv.

the reason was the shelling of border villages in Russia, in which there is no military infrastructure.

this was before the attack on the ship.

But on Russian TV (Rossiya 1, Channel 1) it was connected to the Moskva, not shelling villages. 

[Politenessman]

21 hours ago, Vigo said:

On a  more sombre note; the boat took many tonnes of heavy bunker oil, and significant quantities of toxic pollutants with it. Russia does not have a history of cleaning up its  environmental  messes, so that pollution is going to be destroying the sea for some time.

And as much as I oppose the Russian invasion, I still feel for the young crew who were burnt alive or trapped below deck as the fires and then forced flooding ensued. The Russians don't put much effort into the recovery of lost family members, so I expect there will be many Russian families wondering what happened to their kid.

I wouldn't worry too much about the pollution. consider the numbers of ships sunk in WW2, the world didn't end.

Re the crew, F' em if they can't take a joke - they were involved in an illegal war, as a minimum they could have refused to follow the illegal orders to launch weapons. they chose the easy way out and paid the price.

anyway the Russians say they got the whole crew off so no cause for concern.

[EdwardV]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

Sanctions? such as a reduction or turning off the oil and gas to Europe. That might explain why Zelenskyy has publicly cooled on Germany. More than likely, it’s just more nuclear saber rattling.

Maybe, I have a feeling its just words to be used as a place holder until they can think of something.
Turning off the oil would hurt, tuning off the gas would be devastating. However there is a reason Putin hasn’t done so to date. It’s because no matter how much it will hurt Europe, it would hurt Russia even more. Without those sales they have no money to pay for the war. Wars are incredibly expensive and the sale of oil and gas to Europe is paying most of the bill. The irony isn’t lost on most, problem is neither side can unhook from each other. At least not yet. The Europeans will try first with oil maybe as early as next month. We will see how that goes 

[Politenessman]

13 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Maybe, I have a feeling its just words to be used as a place holder until they can think of something.
Turning off the oil would hurt, tuning off the gas would be devastating.

It would be bad for Europe, but not devastating - they are running into summer and there are plenty of countries that would be happy to supply Gas and Coal, also Germany has reactors that they can spin back up, don't be surprised if they are in the early stages of doing that.

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

It is called propaganda, a communication tool used in times of war and peace. Some people are convinced that only Russia is using propaganda in this war. Go figure…. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

I would have to assume that was obviously produced recently in order to be relevant. 

Wait? What? Its from the 1950's?

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

If you had bothered to read the Wikipedia page I had linked to, you would have noted that propaganda in war time is used to boost morale at home and lower it abroad. If the real truth is not openly acknowledged at home, how can the masses learn otherwise, and when they do, wouldn’t they be shouted down for saying it? Or accused of treason? And you would have learnt also who Renee Hobbs is if you had read the Wikipedia page. 

Putin is clearly good at saving his meager government wage to buy a multi million dollar yacht to park near one of his mansions. I have no issues with you calling the Russians any names. I do have issues with myself being called an apologist, an appeaser or the implication that I support Putin’s war simply because I won’t swallow the same propaganda funneled through MSM that others gorge themselves on with never a thought as to if the stuff is actually as wholesome as advertised.

OK we understand you have an issue with the MSM and prefer "alternative" sources (which is probably a hangover from covid aint it?) but do you seriously consider those alt right sources to have no agenda?

Of course they have. And they are telling you what you want to hear. It suits whoever happens to be funding them for that message to get out.

[Fester]

7 hours ago, vlad said:

If there was a explosion caused by a fire on the Moskva as the Russians are claiming  the ship would have been blown apart once the Magazine exploded. Even a small fire can be catastrophic if it is not put out quickly. The Moskva I presume would have had a full magazine including missiles. If the fire was that severe once the fire reached the magazine it would have been more or less blown to pieces. To me the damage was caused my 2 ship to shore missiles these are not what people are thinking that are fired like a RPG.  1 can do enough damage to sink a vessel look at HMS Sheffield, HMS Coventry both hit by 1 Exocet the Atlantic Conveyor a massive container ship again hit by 1 well aimed Exocet. The Moskva was hit by 2 missiles. Once the control room is damaged the ships machinary, fire fighting systems, would be useless pumps would be not working so water will Quickly Enter if the water is not pumped out quickly its only a matter of time before it will sink.

More likely the other way round, i.e. fire(s) caused by explosion (missiles). Effects of heat transfer from a fire (or fires) are not always obvious, especially when there is a state of panic and if the damage control systems are not fully  functioning. If the ship was able to have a tow line attached, then that indicates some initial overall control of the situation. However, if all fires were not extinguished, then further heat transfer (through bulkheads) could have caused secondary fires with detonations of ordnance and fuel etc. If these occurred below the waterline then that would have been...as they say....that. 

[Poolie]

12 minutes ago, Fester said:

More likely the other way round, i.e. fire(s) caused by explosion (missiles). Effects of heat transfer from a fire (or fires) are not always obvious, especially when there is a state of panic and if the damage control systems are not fully  functioning. If the ship was able to have a tow line attached, then that indicates some initial overall control of the situation. However, if all fires were not extinguished, then further heat transfer (through bulkheads) could have caused secondary fires with detonations of ordnance and fuel etc. If these occurred below the waterline then that would have been...as they say....that. 

I saw a none-biased article (still skeptical) that said it was being towed but took on water in bad weather. I checked the weather and it was bad so 50/50 it sounds likely. 

[Rookiescot]

18 minutes ago, Poolie said:

I saw a none-biased article (still skeptical) that said it was being towed but took on water in bad weather. I checked the weather and it was bad so 50/50 it sounds likely. 

Except the Ukrainians said they hit it with two missiles long before Russias "mysterious" fire broke out.

You can try and take a burnt out hulk in tow (it only burns down to the waterline) but your chances of towing it anywhere are virtually non existent. 

Please provide a link to your non biased article. I may wish to use it in future. 

Thanking you.

[Fester]

28 minutes ago, Poolie said:

I saw a none-biased article (still skeptical) that said it was being towed but took on water in bad weather. I checked the weather and it was bad so 50/50 it sounds likely. 

If you have that weather report that would be good. 

[Alavan]

6 minutes ago, Fester said:

If you have that weather report that would be good. 

Tuesday/Wednesday waves of 1.4 meters, following meteo on Vetusky. Not so bad.

Give them SmitTak and a Dutch salvage master and they would fix it.

 

[KRLMRX]

7 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Propaganda is another name for a lie, simple as, same as fake news, guess what it is a lie too. And no I couldn't be bothered reading Wicki, should I wish to refer to a lie being a lie I will use the word lie, propaganda may be a less sensitive word to you when someone calls Putin out but at the end of the day he is lying!

As for anyone on here being one of Putins apologists, I can only say that they only appear when some-one mentions anything about the vile man himself and if one should say the exact same of Ukraine they tend to remain stum.

But at the end of the day you would not be forced to swallow any lies if the Russian Forces had not illegally invaded Ukraine and started that many believe to be a systematic genocide of the Ukranian people, most people would see this and be automatically sympathetic to the underdogs who are being slaughtered on a daily basis and not worry about trivialities.

you are wrong. propaganda is the active promotion of a certain idea, thought. It is quite possible to propagate good things. For example, the promotion of healthy lifestyles has led to a significant reduction in tobacco use worldwide.

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Alavan said:

Tuesday/Wednesday waves of 1.4 meters, following meteo on Vetusky. Not so bad.

Give them SmitTak and a Dutch salvage master and they would fix it.

Ah Vetusky, thanks. Good that one can look back through the data.

So. on 13th April the very worst indicated weather was NW F5, gusting F6 with sea/swell max 2.5m.

The above conditions are of negligible concern to a cruiser of this size, even if moderately damaged.

The weather was even better the day after, when I assume the towing operation was attempted.

Smit could tow but the damage was evidently not controlled enough to stop the ship from sinking.

Sounds like critical loss of stability followed by capsize. 

[KRLMRX]

6 hours ago, Alavan said:

But on Russian TV (Rossiya 1, Channel 1) it was connected to the Moskva, not shelling villages. 

you know better, I don't watch Russia-1.

But, I repeat, the threats of the Russian Defense Ministry "to attack decision-making centers, including in Kyiv" were voiced before the information about the attack on the ship appeared

[Thaidup]

Was it near "snake island" ?

[EdwardV]

3 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

But, I repeat, the threats of the Russian Defense Ministry "to attack decision-making centers, including in Kyiv" were voiced before the information about the attack on the ship appeared

And yet Russia isn’t attacking decision making centers in Kyiv, they are attacking other locations. For example they hit the abandoned weapons factory reported to be the location where they built the Neptune missiles. For a country that refuses to admit it’s ship was actually hit by Ukrainian missiles, they do a good job making one think it was.  Kinda like moving the rest of its fleet further away from Ukraine the very next day. 
 

The loss of the ship could end up being huge. The Black Sea fleet only had the one major combatant, the other five warships are just frigates. Good ones to be sure, but being much smaller they have limited weapon systems. Don’t be surprised if the west starts moving weapons into Ukraine through Romanian ports. Would be very convenient. 

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, Thaidup said:

Was it near "snake island" ?

Great example of propaganda. The initial headlines trumpeted the defiance of the heroic Ukrainian defenders who refused to surrender and then died under the onslaught of the evil Russian war machine. Ukraine even made a new stamp to commemorate the event.
The truth? They surrendered.

[EdwardV]

16 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The truth? They surrendered.

To be fair, they did get shelled, and it wasn’t unreasonable to think they had died in taking of the island. No one knew until after the legend was born.