News Forum - Missile attack on train station kills 52 Ukrainians, Russia denies involvement

[Guest1]

32 minutes ago, Alavan said:

So please explain why the Ukrainians would bomb a trainstation where 4000 people were trying to get on a train escaping the Russians, bound on a train to Western Ukrain.

False flag, perhaps? It would work, don't you think? Look what this is creating. The world is hating Russia every day more for it. Also they did not really bomb the area with the 4000 people, with "just" 50 dead bodies, out of "4000 targets", neither they used a second rocket, to cover all of the area. 

[Raugh]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

inane nonsense

"Putin is a dead man walking. "

Your words not mine.

At least you sound very sure of your ignorance on these matters.

Lighten up bro. We are chatting on an internet forum dedicated to life in Thailand.

Not hashing it out on TV in front of millions of easily led viewers on BBC World Tonight or what have you with years of in depth study in to this subject at our fingertips. Maybe it's time to take a break from this topic for your health's sake. You seem very concerned over things completely out of your control.

[Guest1]

38 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Germany is even considering sending top of the line Leopard-2 tanks

Not really, methinks. The Ukrain wanna have Leopards, who won't, but the deciding Germans are more thinking about an IFV, the Marder (marten). 

[Rookiescot]

7 hours ago, Raugh said:

"Putin is a dead man walking. "

Your words not mine.

At least you sound very sure of your ignorance on these matters.

Lighten up bro. We are chatting on an internet forum dedicated to life in Thailand.

Not hashing it out on TV in front of millions of easily led viewers on BBC World Tonight or what have you with years of in depth study in to this subject at our fingertips. Maybe it's time to take a break from this topic for your health's sake. You seem very concerned over things completely out of your control.

Do you think when whoever is going to replace Czar Putin arrives for him he will simply be allowed to retire and go live in the countryside somewhere?

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, Jinjok said:

The constant shelling of Donbass sice 8 years and Bio Labs (30 or how many?), planning to get nukes and maybe some more dark stuff of the most corrupt country was the reason for this "Operation".

Both sides had been shelling each other in Donbass. Its Ukrainian territory part of which was seized by Russian backed terrorists.

Bio labs already debunked as Russian propaganda. It was a precursor to using chemical weapons and then claiming they had hit a bio weapons lab or store. Again more lies from Czar Putin.

9 hours ago, Jinjok said:

There is however a real possibility of NATO invading, loads of troops and Armour is arriving in Poland. Some Think Tanks in the US might think there is a chance of surviving a nuclear local conflict.

There is no chance of NATO invading the Ukraine. There was zero chance of NATO invading the Ukraine prior to Russias invasion. Mythical think tanks? Pure invention.

9 hours ago, Jinjok said:

I fear it will escalate. Russian Dominance will pull the rug under the american Petro Dollar and that can not be left unanswered even if it means the poodles like EU and UK will go down together. At the moment we have a reserved Putin not answering as bad as he could.

Russian dominance? Pure fantasy. Open your eyes. Your army is getting its arse kicked. Your economy is trashed. Czar Putin is locked in his own bathroom shouting orders through the keyhole. Wondering if his cup of tea is full of polonium. 

 

[Bluesofa]

10 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Another objective perspective that needs to be taken into consideration... 
 

I noticed a Thai calendar in the background behind the presenter.
It appears that The New Atlas is produced in Bangkok:

[quote]Formally known as "Land Destroyer," The New Atlas provides geopolitical analysis by Brian Berletic (aka Tony Cartalucci) with a focus on Eurasia, based in Bangkok, Thailand. [endquote]
source: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheNewAtlas/about

[EdwardV]

8 hours ago, Guest1 said:

False flag, perhaps? It would work, don't you think? Look what this is creating. The world is hating Russia every day more for it.

Does Ukraine really need to stoke that fire? Could the world really hate Russia even more from this attack? I think not. A nuclear or chemical attack yes, but just more targeting of civilians with conventional weapons no. The question is degree of believably. What is more likely, an attack from a country with a long history of targeting civilians? Or one who has spent the last  5-6 weeks fighting to protect them?

[EdwardV]

8 hours ago, Guest1 said:

Not really, methinks. The Ukrain wanna have Leopards, who won't, but the deciding Germans are more thinking about an IFV, the Marder (marten). 

Maybe. However according to the article Germany has already decided to send them along with Marders. What is holding up the action is the German PM not wanting to be the first country  to send that next level of equipment. Lucky for him the UK plans to do that for them. They are sending anti ship missiles. 

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-703669/amp

Sending Leopards makes sense. Ukraine will need more tanks and sooner or later the west will run out of T-72. Unlike the UK or US, there are plenty of Leopards sitting around in Germany collecting dust. Do it now and they have time to train Ukrainian crews. After all what German doesn’t like selling high end equipment to someone else. 

[Guest1]

6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Does Ukraine really need to stoke that fire?

Need? No !

Want? Who knows.

But back to the rockets: as some could see in the video about the same kind of rocket in Donbas, some time ago, there are serials on it. 

So it might be possible, to identify in whoms possession it got delivered? 

Or, at least, if it is a 30 years old version, or one a lot newer?

[Guest1]

3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Unlike the UK or US, there are plenty of Leopards sitting around in Germany collecting dust

Plenty? The Germans have just about 10% left of the 2500 from the 90s. Even  Greek has more, but the most in Europa, around 300, has the neutral Switzerland! I think, even Turkey has more Leo2s running, as Germany. Because they sold over 2000 of the 2500, they had during cold war

 

[Guest1]

19 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

However according to the article Germany has already decided to send them along with Marders

Also I couldn't really find this statement OF YOURS in the article.

In "best case" the germans "have decided" to maybe send refurbished Marders, in the future. 

The ukrainian Embassador however is pushing his "we want" list, with Leo2s on top.

 

[Fanta]

9 hours ago, EdwardV said:

To be fair it’s not his call. The Biden administration killed the idea because Poland wanted Ukraine to take possession from a US base in Germany. Biden can say “no” to that. The problem isn’t so much one of escalation, it’s of replacement. Poland wanted the US to backfill the loss with F-16s which they know how to fly. Again a US decision and one they couldn’t fulfill as the next ones being built are going to Taiwan. Poland is now looking at buying Swedish Gripens or maybe Korean light attack planes. Those will be reimbursed by the EU. The Polish Mig-29s first have to be modified, with the NATO avionics removed and replaced. I have a feeling we won’t hear about the transfer until well after it happens. 
 

The escalation with equipment is already happening. NATO countries are currently sending T-72 tanks and AFVs. Germany is even considering sending top of the line Leopard-2 tanks. Of course some level of training will be required with those. 
https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-delivery-to-ukraine/amp/

Biden fears an escalation drawing in other countries if NATO bases or forces are used against Russia. I have always referred to those possibilities as being THE escalation. I, perhaps naively, thought that NATO had already offered to send any “stuff” that the Ukrainians knew how to use. Previously I have never considered that as an escalation point. imo, Ukraine is running out of time, the losses on both sides are far larger than admitted and currently only Russia has the resources to replace those losses. Once Mariupol is 100% taken either the peace talks get meaningful or the Russian ground forces will advance towards Kyiv with an ultimatum and their Air Force. 

[EdwardV]

52 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

Also I couldn't really find this statement OF YOURS in the article.

You mean besides the fact the word “tank” is in the title of the article and it’s what the article is all about?

From the article: “We’re setting in motion everything that’s right and sensible,” the chancellor told the Bundestag on Wednesday when asked about tank deliveries. Yet Scholz added that it was important for him to coordinate among EU and NATO partners to ensure “that we provide such military support in the same way, and that no one is rushing ahead — including Germany.”

I don’t know about you, but that sounds like they have decided. Of course with the Germans every “T” has to be crossed and every “i” dotted first before they will officially announce. 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Guest1 said:

Plenty? The Germans have just about 10% left of the 2500 from the 90s.

If you read the article they are not talking about the ones that  actually belong to the German army. It’s the ones sitting at the factory. I’m guessing they were to be refurbished and resold to other counties. 

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

You mean besides the fact the word “tank” is in the title of the article and it’s what the article is all about?

 This article 

https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-delivery-to-ukraine/

[EdwardV]

36 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I, perhaps naively, thought that NATO had already offered to send any “stuff” that the Ukrainians knew how to use. Previously I have never considered that as an escalation point.

NATO can't make that offer since they don't own any equipment. Any donation or sale has to be the choice of the individual members. While just about all have done so to some degree, the issue for others is they don't want to give up equipment that can't be quickly replaced. The Slovakians just sent their only S-300 battery but only after the US sent them a Patriot battery on loan until their new one arrives (when every that is). Same type of thing with countries who offered to send Mig-29s only to back up when replacement planes are not to show up anytime soon. Understandable when Russia is rampaging around the neighborhood.   

40 minutes ago, Fanta said:

imo, Ukraine is running out of time, the losses on both sides are far larger than admitted and currently only Russia has the resources to replace those losses. Once Mariupol is 100% taken either the peace talks get meaningful or the Russian ground forces will advance towards Kyiv with an ultimatum and their Air Force. 

My opinion is closer to yours than not. My only objection is I don't think Russia will agree to any peace deal until all of Ukraine is occupied. After that and if they can over come an insurgency, they will attack NATO. IMO Ukraine isn't the objective, it's just a step in the ladder. 

[EdwardV]

15 minutes ago, Fanta said:

 This article 

https://www.politico.eu/article/scholz-holds-up-german-tank-delivery-to-ukraine/

Yes. Isn't that what we were talking about, Germany wanting to send Leopard 2 tanks? Excuse me if I misunderstood or I didn't explain myself well enough. 

[Fanta]

16 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Yes. Isn't that what we were talking about, Germany wanting to send Leopard 2 tanks? Excuse me if I misunderstood or I didn't explain myself well enough. 

We were. I was replying to Guest1’s question that he couldn’t find any reference to tanks in the later article you posted so I posted your previous link. I should have replied to him. My bad.

19 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

My opinion is closer to yours than not. My only objection is I don't think Russia will agree to any peace deal until all of Ukraine is occupied. After that and if they can over come an insurgency, they will attack NATO. IMO Ukraine isn't the objective, it's just a step in the ladder. 

I was “hoping” for Ukraine to give up the 2 disputed regions, any claim to Crimea or NATO membership and for Russia to toddle off home leaving an eventually much stronger Ukraine as a buffer zone. We haven’t seen any huge military buildup from Russia nor a big deployment of their forces so I like to believe that taking Europe isn’t a Russian short or long term goal. Plus it’s full of French and Germans, who’d want to stay there for too long? /s

[Jayce]

12 hours ago, Jinjok said:

Not sure if this is satire, if not you should seriously refrain from too much TV.

The constant shelling of Donbass sice 8 years and Bio Labs (30 or how many?), planning to get nukes and maybe some more dark stuff of the most corrupt country was the reason for this "Operation".

There is however a real possibility of NATO invading, loads of troops and Armour is arriving in Poland. Some Think Tanks in the US might think there is a chance of surviving a nuclear local conflict.

There is not, Russia will retaliate to the head, which is Amerika, so there is that.

At the moment it is Russian superiority (NATO will be erased in no time) but not forever.

I fear it will escalate. Russian Dominance will pull the rug under the american Petro Dollar and that can not be left unanswered even if it means the poodles like EU and UK will go down together. At the moment we have a reserved Putin not answering as bad as he could.

So there is hope.

So how much is dear old Puti paying you to post this kind of moronic dribble here?

Name 1 time that NATO has invaded anything to annex a country...?

You can't cause NATO (as the acronym says) is an organization, not a country so it wouldn't even be able to annex a country.

This in sharp contrast to the country of Russia of course.

Even if Ukraine would've joined NATO, NATO would have never taken offensive action from there or any other country. NATO is a defensive organization as opposed to Russia. If you truly believe NATO was a threat to Russia prior to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, you've been swallowing your boss' propaganda for too long and are way too far down the rabbit hole to be saved.

[Pinetree]

15 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

All out war means the plebs are fighting each other on both sides. 

We fix this by forcing a regime change in Russia. Everything we can do. Many have already been implemented. Sanctions must remain in place for as long as Czar Putin remains in power. The west should make that clear so those around Czar Putin know there is only one way to fix this.

Hand over the planes to the Ukraine but allow them to fly from Polish airbases. After all its not NATO assets involved in this. Its Ukrainian pilots engaged in training exercises while based in a NATO country. Where those Ukrainian pilots go and what they do after they take off is not our business.

Would Czar Putin attack Polish airbases? No chance. His military cant take on a well motivated and equipped Ukraine. He knows he has zero chance against professional western forces in NATO. 

Czar Putin was full of bluff and bluster before this invasion took place. Now he is curiously quiet and avoids personal contact with anyone. He has virtually no friends any more.

All he can do is order the shelling and missile strikes of civilians in the hope that everyone else comes to him seeking peace.

But thats not happening. He is losing the war. His economy is trashed. His sole source of hard currency is dwindling. The atrocities simply harden peoples opinions against him.

Putin is a dead man walking.

What you are saying is tantamount to War, so let's not pussy foot around.  First rule of Military action is strike hard, with overwhelming force.  Limited war doesn't work, AKA Vietnam, a strategic nuclear exchange is not needed, and highly unlikely, battlefield tactical nucs, yes.  Rescind the ban on cluster bombs (they work) and get on with it.  The threat of it may be enough, but you need to mean it. As for getting rid of Putin, what's the point, another one just as bad will just come and take his place. 

[Pinetree]

28 minutes ago, Jayce said:

Name 1 time that NATO has invaded anything to annex a country...?

The invasion of Afghanistan was initially a purely  NATO intervention, as that country presented an existential threat to NATO members by hosting terrorist training camps. The build up for both Gulf Wars was also under the control of NATO and its existing Chain of Command. 

[Soidog]

15 hours ago, KaptainRob said:

I agree with your sentiments but easier said than done especially when temps are in the single digits, never mind fuel for industry.  Evil incarnate Putin has the EU over a barrel.

Yes I agree KR, but this is a stark example that everything has a price. The Germans are not prepared to see their factories close and people sitting in cold houses in the dark in order to stand up to Putin. At what stage would Germany (and others) be prepared to suffer financially in order to save innocent women and children? 

[Guest1]

2 hours ago, EdwardV said:

If you read the article they are not talking about the ones that  actually belong to the German army. It’s the ones sitting at the factory. I’m guessing they were to be refurbished and resold to other counties. 

Yes, but that are the 100 "marders"at Rheinmetall. 

There are not many Leos "sitting" in the Krauss Maffey factory. 

And yes, they are talking about the few Marder the Gernan Armee still has running. Because the ones in factory are mostly not in conditions, to use them right away. They talking about "get them your Bundeswehr Tanks, we repair the others and refill your armee" 

2 hours ago, EdwardV said:

You mean besides the fact the word “tank” is in the title of the article and it’s what the article is all about?

It is mainly about "100 marder" tanks, not really about Leopard 2. Plus a cancelor, who still need to make up his mind.

Let's wait and see!

[Guest1]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

Biden fears an escalation drawing in other countries if NATO bases or forces are used against Russia

Biden fears just, that the US is seen as part of the conflict, by the Russians. Biden would have had no problem, with the Jets would have been delivered from Polonia direct. They just worried about "from an US Base in Germany", the US being the country, that delivers them.

[Guest1]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

I was replying to Guest1’s question that he couldn’t find any reference to tanks in the later article you posted so I posted your previous link.

So now you are 2, not reading the own posts, neither all of the replies? Two times wrong does not make it right, boys!

Yes, the article is about Marder, but my answer to EdwardV was about his claim, that the Germans wanna send Leopard 2.

 

13 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Germany is even considering sending top of the line Leopard-2 tanks.

But I make it easy for you, the only two times, Leopard 2 is mentioned in that article is:

Politicians are also discussing whether Berlin could similarly supply its world-class, heavy-combat “Leopard” tanks to Ukraine. “Rheinmetall reportedly has not only Marder standing around but also heavier weapons,” said the Greens’ Hofreiter.

Ukraine’s ambassador to Germany, Andriy Melnyk, told Deutschlandfunk radio on Thursday that Kyiv is “expecting” Berlin to deliver Marder and Leopard tanks, as well as the anti-aircraft “Gepard” tank.

To claim now, that "Germany is considering", that is a long stretch. Isn't it? The Leopard 2 got into this discussion by the not so diplomatic diplomate of the Ukraine in Germany, the even louder loudspeaker of Selensky, Mr. Melnyk.