News Forum - Missile attack on train station kills 52 Ukrainians, Russia denies involvement

[NorskTiger]

8 minutes ago, Fester said:

The defenders are not outnumbered in Ukraine itself. The entire Russian Army is not there but significant numbers of Ukrainian (plus foreign) reservists and volunteers are. The Ukrainians have limited air power and only a small navy, both of which are outgunned and outnumbered. 

But your example still does not compare to this invasion.  

Strategically, Ukraine is very outnumbered. When it appears that no physical help will come; the main bulk of Ukraine core units are being encircled in Donbass and Russia still has the momentum with vast reserves available, it is clear Ukraine are outnumbered. 

 On tactical level, the Russians still are reaching some goals and holding their units together. The initial drive towards Kiev appears to have been a feint, as soon as it was obvious a Coup de main would not work. 

   Russia will be able to concentrate and redeploy units at a much higher level that Ukraine will.  I see nothing on the ground which changes this. We will see how far Russia is willing to go and how far the West is willing to stand BEHIND the Ukrainean fighting forces withering away. 

  After Easter, the late spring is coming with the excellent weather and especially great conditions for air support. The Ukrainean cities will be turned into rubble one by one. 

 

       A way out is needed. 

[EdwardV]

39 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

 Are you going to keep saying this is ONLY between Russia and Ukraine until things really start blowing up?

   The Russian response was cruel and not very bright (IMHO), but let's not try to pretend all this happened without any prologue. 

You're not telling me what the US can do to make Russia happy? "Can" as in they have the ability to make happen.

"Prologue" as in someone other than Russia forced them to attack Ukraine? Lets start by not pretending this war is about Ukraine. It's about something much larger and started in Georgia and won't end until Russian tanks are 2/3s of the way into Poland. Once we do that, we can get past the fake Nazi/NATO story about why Russia is attacking Ukraine in the first place. 

You made the statement the US and Russia should cut a peace deal to end the war. What deal does Russia want? The one they demanded prior to attacking Ukraine? We already know that isn't in the US's power to give even if America wanted to do so. Is there something else you had in mind? 

[EdwardV]

25 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

and how far the West is willing to stand BEHIND the Ukrainean fighting forces withering away. 

Considering much of the training the west originally gave the Ukrainian army was in how to fight an insurgency. I would guess the west has every intention of standing behind Ukraine for a very long time. 

I liked how you wrote "BEHIND" like there is a better choice at this point in time. Keeping in mind, the Ukrainians themselves have stated they don't want troops, they just want heavier weapons. 

[Rookiescot]

38 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Strategically, Ukraine is very outnumbered. When it appears that no physical help will come; the main bulk of Ukraine core units are being encircled in Donbass and Russia still has the momentum with vast reserves available, it is clear Ukraine are outnumbered.

Evidence they are being encircled? From what everyone else can see they are advancing is some areas.

Expect further major offensives to take place around Kherson driving towards the sea and cutting off the Crimea.

Those forces who were in the north around Kyiv are badly beaten and will take weeks to become combat effective again. Russia will not be able to count on them for a long time. If ever.

46 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

 On tactical level, the Russians still are reaching some goals and holding their units together. The initial drive towards Kiev appears to have been a feint, as soon as it was obvious a Coup de main would not work.

Feint nothing. Those forces were fought to a standstill and then reversed. 

48 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Russia will be able to concentrate and redeploy units at a much higher level that Ukraine will.  I see nothing on the ground which changes this. We will see how far Russia is willing to go and how far the West is willing to stand BEHIND the Ukrainean fighting forces withering away

Redeploy units which are combat ineffective? Yeah good luck with that. I will say it again. Those forces in the north have lost so much personnel, equipment and moral they will take weeks if not months to reconstitute. Thats even if they can be given Russias dearth of supplies and the troops moral.

 

52 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

  After Easter, the late spring is coming with the excellent weather and especially great conditions for air support. The Ukrainean cities will be turned into rubble one by one.

You think the weather has been an issue for Russian air assets? LOL.

More likely the fact that the Ukrainians have western MANPAD's. Russian helicopter gunships being the target of choice as we have seen in many videos.

So in short the only wins Czar Putin has so far is killing a lot of civilians. Just given the job over to a guy who has a track record of killing civilians and using chemical weapons to do it.

I imagine in a couple of days I will be disgusted at their use and all the Czar Putin lovers will be denying its even happened.   

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

The initial drive towards Kiev appears to have been a feint, as soon as it was obvious a Coup de main would not work. 

If a feint then a very expensive one in casualties and material

[EdwardV]

37 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Thats even if they can be given Russias dearth of supplies

Seems the Russians have been forced into getting supplies out of Iraq via Iran:

 

Russia is receiving munitions and military hardware sourced from Iraq for its war effort in Ukraine with the help of Iranian weapons-smuggling networks, according to members of Iranian-backed Iraqi militias and regional intelligence services with knowledge of the process. RPGs and anti-tank missiles, as well as Brazilian-designed rocket launcher systems, have been dispatched to Russia from Iraq as Moscow’s campaign has faltered in the last month, the Guardian has learned. And an Iranian-made Bavar 373 missile system, similar to the Russian S-300, has been donated to Moscow by the authorities in Tehran. Using the weapons-trafficking underworld would signal a dramatic shift in Russian strategy as Moscow is forced to lean on Iran, its military ally in Syria, after new sanctions triggered by the invasion of Ukraine.

First Thing: Russia using weapons ‘smuggled by Iran’ in Ukraine (msn.com)

That's a whole level of desperation below my wildest dreams. Clearly if true, there was some serious level of corruption in the Russian military procurement system for it to be this bad this early. 

In addition news from the crazy side of the Russia military:

Ukraine's Defense Ministry has released a video purportedly showing that a Russian military surveillance drone isn’t as high-tech as it seems, with features like a taped-on Canon DSLR camera and a fuel tank sealed with a plastic water bottle cap. 

Ukraine releases video of Russia drone dismantling – and here's what they found (msn.com)

Once again if true, there are some serious issues in the Russian military. No military has everything they need, and it's not unusual to see some equipment jerry-rigged. However there is no excuse for these issues this early in a campaign where Russia has had years to prepare.   

 

[Fester]

3 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Strategically, Ukraine is very outnumbered. When it appears that no physical help will come; the main bulk of Ukraine core units are being encircled in Donbass and Russia still has the momentum with vast reserves available, it is clear Ukraine are outnumbered. 

 On tactical level, the Russians still are reaching some goals and holding their units together. The initial drive towards Kiev appears to have been a feint, as soon as it was obvious a Coup de main would not work. 

   Russia will be able to concentrate and redeploy units at a much higher level that Ukraine will.  I see nothing on the ground which changes this. We will see how far Russia is willing to go and how far the West is willing to stand BEHIND the Ukrainean fighting forces withering away. 

  After Easter, the late spring is coming with the excellent weather and especially great conditions for air support. The Ukrainean cities will be turned into rubble one by one. 

       A way out is needed. 

On tactical level, the Russians have shown complete incompetence, so far. The initial drive towards Kiev appears to have been a complete cock-up. Enjoy the daffodils.

 

 

[KRLMRX]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:31 PM, Pinetree said:

It has been a series of broken societies and failed rulers since Peter The Great, it will never change, as its imbedded in the Russian psych. The poor plebeians are totally subdued, un-informed, largely un-educated and down trodden and the rulers are insensitive, manipulative, melomaniac criminals.  You can't change 400 odd years of institutionalized failure by removing the criminal Putin. How do you stop it or change it, why by all out War of course.    

it's good that we all have 400 years of good governance by European monarchs, prosperity, humanism and gender freedom. Starting with Bloody Mary.

[KRLMRX]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:59 PM, Alavan said:

So please explain why the Ukrainians would bomb a trainstation where 4000 people were trying to get on a train escaping the Russians, bound on a train to Western Ukrain.

perhaps in order to blame the Russians?  The serial number of this rocket has been preserved and it clearly indicates a Ukrainian military unit.  There is a possibility that the Russians captured the rocket launcher.  But again the question arises - who benefits?  

Biden said the US would intervene if Russia used chemical weapons.  After that, there were reports of shelling of chemical plants and recently information about the alleged use of chemical weapons in Mariupol.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/24/biden-says-us-would-respond-to-russia-if-putin-uses-chemical-or-biological-weapons.html

I don't think you will  to deny that "the use of chemical weapons by Russia" is now beneficial primarily to the government of Ukraine. 

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, KRLMRX said:

Biden said the US would intervene if Russia used chemical weapons.

He didn't say that, the article says "respond" not "intervene". Huge difference.  

[KRLMRX]

6 hours ago, EdwardV said:

He didn't say that, the article says "respond" not "intervene". Huge difference.  

I agree.  in any case, the American response will be beneficial to the government of Ukraine.  Therefore, unfortunately, it is very likely that in the near future we will see some kind of chemical attack with dead civilians.

[Pinetree]

8 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

it's good that we all have 400 years of good governance by European monarchs, prosperity, humanism and gender freedom. Starting with Bloody Mary.

we advanced beyond them 500 years ago, the Russians have not. 

[Rookiescot]

11 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

perhaps in order to blame the Russians?  The serial number of this rocket has been preserved and it clearly indicates a Ukrainian military unit.  There is a possibility that the Russians captured the rocket launcher.  But again the question arises - who benefits?

Fake news.

Two missiles hit near the railway station building in Kramatorsk at approximately 10:30,[12] and the first reports were published in Ukrainian media at around 10:45.[13] At 10:24 and 10:25, media affiliated with the People's Republic of Donetsk had published videos showing the launching of a pair of missiles from Shakhtarsk, a city under separatist control.[13]

Initially, Russian state media and pro-Russian Telegram channels[25][26] claimed successful Russian airstrikes on the Ukrainian military at the railway station of Kramatorsk. After it became clear that the missiles had killed civilians, however, earlier reports were redacted, the Russian government denied responsibility for the attack, and the Russian Ministry of Defence characterized it as a Ukrainian hoax.[25][27]

Kramatorsk railway station attack - Wikipedia

 

[Fester]

11 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

perhaps in order to blame the Russians?  The serial number of this rocket has been preserved and it clearly indicates a Ukrainian military unit.  There is a possibility that the Russians captured the rocket launcher.  But again the question arises - who benefits?  

Biden said the US would intervene if Russia used chemical weapons.  After that, there were reports of shelling of chemical plants and recently information about the alleged use of chemical weapons in Mariupol.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/24/biden-says-us-would-respond-to-russia-if-putin-uses-chemical-or-biological-weapons.html

I don't think you will  to deny that "the use of chemical weapons by Russia" is now beneficial primarily to the government of Ukraine. 

The link you need to include is the one proving your claim that: the serial number of this rocket has been preserved and it clearly indicates a Ukrainian military unit.

[Freeduhdumb]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:55 PM, Soidog said:

Hopefully we will see Putin swinging at the end of a rope as we did Saddam. The rope needs to be applied at the hands of the Russian people. 

Where's the weapons of mass destruction?

Oh... that's right there were none. You're comment is so far off reality as to be complete irrationality... usually you are more thoughtful with your comments... but I just couldn't let this one stand.. you clearly don't have a complete historical and contemporary understanding of the Iraq conflict and this one.

[Soidog]

1 minute ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Where's the weapons of mass destruction?

Oh... that's right there were none. You're comment is so far off reality as to be complete irrationality... usually you are more thoughtful with your comments... but I just couldn't let this one stand.. you clearly don't have a complete historical and contemporary understanding of this conflict. 

There is no doubt that the pretext for invading Iraq based on WMD was flawed and wrong with the power of 20/20 hindsight.

However, as I have said in another post, Saddam and his psychopathic son Uday had invaded Kuwait (Putin style), gassed their own people, fought wars with Iran and generally a regional pain in the ass. Uday was a psycho who terrorised people for fun. The fact that the Iraq war resulted in the both being removed from the planet makes me feel it was ultimately a just war. Ukrain and it’s president had done no such things. Hence it is wrong to compare the actions of the US and the coalition forces to what Putin and the murdering Russians have done in Ukraine. 

[KaptainRob]

This thread seems to have strayed a long way off topic at times and 2 recent posts have been removed as a result.  Please try and stay on UKRAINE and not ancient history.

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, Soidog said:

There is no doubt that the pretext for invading Iraq based on WMD was flawed and wrong with the power of 20/20 hindsight.

However, as I have said in another post, Saddam and his psychopathic son Uday had invaded Kuwait (Putin style), gassed their own people, fought wars with Iran and generally a regional pain in the ass. Uday was a psycho who terrorised people for fun. The fact that the Iraq war resulted in the both being removed from the planet makes me feel it was ultimately a just war. Ukrain and it’s president had done no such things. Hence it is wrong to compare the actions of the US and the coalition forces to what Putin and the murdering Russians have done in Ukraine. 

Quite wrong comparison indeed. US/ UK removed a genocidal maniac & evil regime. Putin Criminal invaded a peaceful Democratic Nation for his “ perceptions” of “ threat”.

Were there not in fact several prior UN Resolutions ordering Iraq to allow WMD Inspections,which were ignored ?  Didn’t US cite enforcement of those as primary reason to invade rather than just WMD claim ? 

[EdwardV]

8 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

I agree.  in any case, the American response will be beneficial to the government of Ukraine.  Therefore, unfortunately, it is very likely that in the near future we will see some kind of chemical attack with dead civilians.

The implication being you think Ukraine will do a false flag chemical attack on its own people to generate more American aid? Besides the fact there is no history of Ukraine doing chemical attacks, false flag or otherwise. At the same time there is plenty of history of Russia actually doing so (Aleppo, Grozny). Why would Ukraine risk such an attack and lose all the good will it’s built up when American is already bending over backwards to give them everything they can? The world already considers Putin a war criminal and guilty of genocide. There is no logic to the idea. 

[Freeduhdumb]

56 minutes ago, Soidog said:

There is no doubt that the pretext for invading Iraq based on WMD was flawed and wrong with the power of 20/20 hindsight.

However, as I have said in another post, Saddam and his psychopathic son Uday had invaded Kuwait (Putin style), gassed their own people, fought wars with Iran and generally a regional pain in the ass. Uday was a psycho who terrorised people for fun. The fact that the Iraq war resulted in the both being removed from the planet makes me feel it was ultimately a just war. Ukrain and it’s president had done no such things. Hence it is wrong to compare the actions of the US and the coalition forces to what Putin and the murdering Russians have done in Ukraine. 

Just another fun fact... America created Saddam. And all that blood and treasure to simply undo what they created in the first place... that is what we call maladaptive psychotic behavior. 

[Freeduhdumb]

On 4/9/2022 at 9:13 PM, Rookiescot said:

Oh OK they are not retreating from Kyiv then.

Its good you are here to clarify this. All the rest of us thought the territorial gains the Ukrainians were making were real around Kyiv.

What was that about being taken seriously?

They're not retreating at all... over 1000 Ukrainian Marines have now surrendered in Mariupol. The Russian Cauldron continues to close... 
 

 

[Soidog]

40 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Just another fun fact... America created Saddam. 

I think it’s a far stretch to say they created the evil tyrant. Remember, when he came to power, these were Cold War days and if you made an enemy of Saddam and the vile Baath Party in Iraq, the Soviets would have been more than willing to step in and offer support. Better to have Saddam in your pocket than let the Soviets arm him and make him capable of destroying Israel. It was a “friendship” based on a strategy of containment. 

[Rookiescot]

14 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

They're not retreating at all... over 1000 Ukrainian Marines have now surrendered in Mariupol. The Russian Cauldron continues to close... 
 

Is Mariupol near Kyiv?

But lets face facts here, no the Russians have been chased out of north and north east Ukraine where do you think and those Ukrainian forces along with their western supplied weapons are heading?

The defenders of Mariupol should be proud. They held that city until they ran out of ammunition. Do you think Russian conscripts will be able to do the same?

[Rookiescot]

33 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

They're not retreating at all... over 1000 Ukrainian Marines have now surrendered in Mariupol. The Russian Cauldron continues to close... 
 

Who is this clown btw? I just watched that video. If this is where all you Czar Putin apologists get your information from then you are all sadly misinformed. 

[Guest1]

36 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I think it’s a far stretch to say they created the evil tyrant. Remember, when he came to power, these were Cold War days and if you made an enemy of Saddam and the vile Baath Party in Iraq, the Soviets would have been more than willing to step in and offer support. Better to have Saddam in your pocket than let the Soviets arm him and make him capable of destroying Israel. It was a “friendship” based on a strategy of containment. 

It was "a friendhip", to get  back on and in Iran. 

After Ayatholla Khomeni kicked out the Shah, who was the  gurantor for the US and GB oil billions from Iran oil, they feeded Hussein for/in the Irak/Iran war.  That was just for Oil, like all of the wars in that area. Oh, the last Irak war was also because of the US$: Saddam started already to sale in other currencies. Same mistake, Gaddhafi did. Same result. Also Syria was never a "free the people" mission. Just trying to defend own oil interests!

It is/was not all about communism or  democracy or such. Just sounds better, as Oil $'s