News Forum - Missile attack on train station kills 52 Ukrainians, Russia denies involvement

[Guest1]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

At what stage would Germany (and others) be prepared to suffer financially in order to save innocent women and children? 

At what stage would the president of the Ukraine start to save them? I am not defending the Germans, they did a lot of foolish decisions in the past decades, some even affecting all of Europe.  But they let pay their citizen/taxpayers a lot, already, for that. Also they will, assumingly, suffer the most from the Ukraine refugees , which are moving to western Europe.  And, to look at the bigger picture, no one in EU want a broken Germany. To be at fault? Always! But to support them?  The Brits out of EU, never in the Euro, was one thing. But a broke Germany? No one wanna have that country as a beneficiary in EU. Also the Euro would get to an all time low, quickly, in case the German economy is falling apart! 

[Pinetree]

5 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

they did a lot of foolish decisions in the past decades, some even affecting all of Europe. 

Now that is the biggest understatement I have ever seen. 

[Jayce]

3 hours ago, Pinetree said:

The invasion of Afghanistan was initially a purely  NATO intervention, as that country presented an existential threat to NATO members by hosting terrorist training camps. The build up for both Gulf Wars was also under the control of NATO and its existing Chain of Command. 

And after that Afganistan was forced to join NATO and to be ruled by a megalomaniac autocrat whodoes not believe in free speech????

Edited April 10, 2022 by Jayce

[Soidog]

2 hours ago, Guest1 said:

At what stage would the president of the Ukraine start to save them? I am not defending the Germans, they did a lot of foolish decisions in the past decades, some even affecting all of Europe.  But they let pay their citizen/taxpayers a lot, already, for that. Also they will, assumingly, suffer the most from the Ukraine refugees , which are moving to western Europe.  And, to look at the bigger picture, no one in EU want a broken Germany. To be at fault? Always! But to support them?  The Brits out of EU, never in the Euro, was one thing. But a broke Germany? No one wanna have that country as a beneficiary in EU. Also the Euro would get to an all time low, quickly, in case the German economy is falling apart! 

Well I agree, but that explains why they are acting as they are. It doesn’t address the question of what value does not only Germany, but other European countries place on innocent Ukrainian life’s? If only 20% of German gas supplies came from Russia would they switch it off? What about 10% or 5%? 
 

Im just making the point that for all the kind words of support for Ukraine, there is a limit on the price other European countries are prepared to pay in order to support the values they claim to uphold. 

[Fanta]

21 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Well I agree, but that explains why they are acting as they are. It doesn’t address the question of what value does not only Germany, but other European countries place on innocent Ukrainian life’s? If only 20% of German gas supplies came from Russia would they switch it off? What about 10% or 5%? 
 

Im just making the point that for all the kind words of support for Ukraine, there is a limit on the price other European countries are prepared to pay in order to support the values they claim to uphold. 

It is political Risk vs Reward. Will punishing  Russia win an election? Nope. Will a shortage of gas lose a election. Yep. 

[Pinetree]

1 hour ago, Jayce said:

And after that Afganistan was forced to join NATO and to be ruled by a megalomaniac autocrat whodoes not believe in free speech????

No, you've got me there. No idea what that means. Afgan is not in NATO, not has ever been, nor could be .  And what autocrat rules it? 

[Jayce]

25 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

No, you've got me there. No idea what that means. Afgan is not in NATO, not has ever been, nor could be .  And what autocrat rules it? 

Exactly my point, Afganistan went back to being Afganistan. Which is not what will happen should Russia be successful in its attempt to annex Ukraine. 

The people will be subjugated and ruled by a despot who will wipe out any Ukrainian cultural identity therefore making your comparison of the situation to Afganistan and the US (not even NATO if memory serves) laughable.

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

It is political Risk vs Reward. Will punishing  Russia win an election? Nope. Will a shortage of gas lose a election. Yep. 

Sad but true. Lives really don’t seem to matter. 

[Pinetree]

34 minutes ago, Jayce said:

Exactly my point, Afganistan went back to being Afganistan. Which is not what will happen should Russia be successful in its attempt to annex Ukraine. 

The people will be subjugated and ruled by a despot who will wipe out any Ukrainian cultural identity therefore making your comparison of the situation to Afganistan and the US (not even NATO if memory serves) laughable.

Then you clearly didn't understand the flow of the posts before mine 

[Freeduhdumb]

15 hours ago, Bluesofa said:

I noticed a Thai calendar in the background behind the presenter.
It appears that The New Atlas is produced in Bangkok:

[quote]Formally known as "Land Destroyer," The New Atlas provides geopolitical analysis by Brian Berletic (aka Tony Cartalucci) with a focus on Eurasia, based in Bangkok, Thailand. [endquote]
source: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheNewAtlas/about

Right... Thanks. 
 

 

[Stardust]

On 4/9/2022 at 11:38 PM, Guest1 said:

False flag, perhaps? It would work, don't you think? Look what this is creating. The world is hating Russia every day more for it. Also they did not really bomb the area with the 4000 people, with "just" 50 dead bodies, out of "4000 targets", neither they used a second rocket, to cover all of the area. 

The documentation including the video footages that they brought this missile equipment is already out and was in the German newsoutlet. Another try to spread Putins misinformation campaigns like with Bucha that it is staged. The German foreign intelligent service is monitoring all and intercept the radio comunication and recorded all and already the evidences were in the news. Before you were talking about Germany but you not know German news? The biggest newsoutlets put this footages about the missiles even on youtube (Bild) . By the way you have no knowledge about the military. Germany and other Nato members have their Radarsystems, Patriots etc at the borders to Ukraine! Ukraine is monitored 24 hours including space and thats their job. They monitor every missile from the start and from who and where. They are monitoring already every movement from the Russian mobile missile units in Russia and thats their job and show your knowledge level and thinking Putins misinformation campaigns are clever. False flag missiles are not possible because it is all monitored! I guess you even not know that the fast respond units are at the bordering countries and one job of it is identifing all whats in the sky and on the ground! And I am wondering how posters can use this forum for spreading the misinformation campaigns from Putin.

[TedG]

On 4/9/2022 at 9:55 AM, Freeduhdumb said:

Another objective perspective that needs to be taken into consideration... 
 

Don't embarrass yourself. 

[Convert54]

1 hour ago, TedG said:

Don't embarrass yourself. 

Or you (potentially) !

[Fester]

1 hour ago, TedG said:

Don't embarrass yourself. 

Yes, the Russians are still using these things.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-8

[EdwardV]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:20 AM, Freeduhdumb said:

Right... Thanks. 
 

I actually found the video fascinating and at the same time next to worthless. It's not that he said anything that wasn't correct, it's that most of it was disingenuous in painting only half of the picture. For example when he first mentioned the UK sending Harpoon missiles he acted like Ukraine didn't have any use for them. Correctly pointing out they lack a navy and stating didn't really have any port that needed protection. He does mention Odesa, but then dismisses it out of hand. Odesa is Ukraine's main port and it's still fully in the hands of the country. All the rest of the ports are small potatoes in comparison. Yes the Harpoon is mainly a sea launched missile, but it's also air launched and can be from the shore too. No it doesn't have to be truck mounted, although that's helpful, they can be mounted to any static support structure. Pointing out all the training US sailors get before being qualified for their job is disingenuous. You don't need to know most of that in order to correctly and effectively fire a harpoon. The very fact they are already in Odesa, would lead one to believe the Ukrainians have already been trained. Keeping in mind the biggest problem for Ukraine isn't breaking the blockade, the Harpoon can't help in that. Russian ships would just move out of range and keep interdicting shipping. What is needed is to stop Russia from shelling the city from sea, something the Harpoon would be well suited in doing. He points out all the training and logistics needed for Ukraine to use western aircraft, yet that's never even been contemplated by the west. He incorrectly points out the lack of western anti aircraft systems. The west has the Patriot and Stinger systems. What the West lacks and what Ukraine needs is the mid level systems, but he kinda skips over that. He takes a lot of time talking about tanks but almost completely misses the point. Yes Ukraine needs training and to build a logistics tail to use western tanks, all of which takes time. He fails to see the time to start that is now. That aside he basically makes the case tanks are next to worthless which couldn't be further from the truth. He uses a National Interest article to prove his case, but if you read further in the article you see: 

Undoubtedly, the manner in which the Turkish Army employed the German tanks likely contributed to the losses. Rather than using them in a combined arms force alongside mutually supporting infantry, they were deployed to the rear as long-range fire-support weapons while Turkish-allied Syrian militias stiffened with Turkish special forces led the assaults. Isolated on exposed firing positions without adequate nearby infantry to form a good defensive perimeter, the Turkish Leopards were vulnerable to ambushes. The same poor tactics have led to the loss of numerous Saudi Abrams tanks in Yemen, as you can see in this video.

The Leopard 2 Tank Has Some Big Flaws (As It Got Smashed In Syria) | The National Interest

The problem the Turks and Saudis had is the same one the Russian's have now. They are not using tanks in combined arms attacks with infantry, close air and artillery support. Also while Ukraine is great tank country, it isn't right now. Right now tanks are mostly restricted to roads which are great for ambushes. When the ground dries and firms up in another month or two, watch out. That point is why Ukraine is begging for tanks. Not because they like watching their own get blown up and want to see more. I could go on but you get the point.  

[NorskTiger]

There is an information "war" while the real war is being fought. Newsmedia on the Western side obviously are portraying the Western side and the other side has the Russian side covered. 

     I have found the Indian news channels to be reasonably well-balanced, if you can say any such things about a war. 

 

     This offensive is not unlike the nimble German defense against the Red army after Kursk and far into 1944.  Note that the Russian army is NOT attacking on a broad front as happened at that time. We do not know what the movement towards Kiev was. The initial intent may very well have been to try a Coup de main, but when that failed, it DID succeed in binding up a lot of Ukrainean logistics and then racing to take the Donbass Ukrainean forces (the MAIN bulk of their active army) in the rear. 

   

    Strategically, nothing has changed for the Russia. They are still winning. Snailing themselves along, but inevitably looking to clean entire Donbass and secure a land bridge to Krimea.  This war has "only" lasted a little bit more than a month. Media seem to think this is a skirmish where minor tactical battles are more decisive than Cannae. 

      ONLY politics will solve this conflict. It is sickening to watch how the Ukraianeans are bleeding to death, while receiving tons of weapons to bleed even more. 

      ONLY a US-Russia summit seem to be able to solve this now. All grace to Turkey for trying to meddle here, but this may even be too big for Xi and Modi to handle. 

     

  

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

ONLY a US-Russia summit seem to be able to solve this now. All grace to Turkey for trying to meddle here, but this may even be too big for Xi and Modi to handle. 

Besides the fact I don't think Putin has any intention of agreeing to a peace deal until all of Ukraine is conquered. At least not one he wouldn't break in a year or two. That said, fact is this isn't a war for the US to end in a deal with Russia. The war is between Ukraine and Russia and only they can end it. Why is it up to the US, and what could they possibly give Russia to make them happy? 

 

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

ONLY politics will solve this conflict. It is sickening to watch how the Ukraianeans are bleeding to death, while receiving tons of weapons to bleed even more. 

Blame that on Russia, they are the ones who started and continue this war. Regardless we should excuse Ukraine for the fact they would rather fight than become part of Russia. 

[Turist_v_etom_mire]

On 4/9/2022 at 7:53 PM, Rookiescot said:

<<Russian text deleted>>

We trust our President more than ever. And to believe Ukrainian propaganda is the last thing

Edited April 12, 2022 by KaptainRob
Refer Forum Guidelines all text must be in ENGLISH

[Fester]

11 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

There is an information "war" while the real war is being fought. Newsmedia on the Western side obviously are portraying the Western side and the other side has the Russian side covered. 

     I have found the Indian news channels to be reasonably well-balanced, if you can say any such things about a war. 

     This offensive is not unlike the nimble German defense against the Red army after Kursk and far into 1944.  Note that the Russian army is NOT attacking on a broad front as happened at that time. We do not know what the movement towards Kiev was. The initial intent may very well have been to try a Coup de main, but when that failed, it DID succeed in binding up a lot of Ukrainean logistics and then racing to take the Donbass Ukrainean forces (the MAIN bulk of their active army) in the rear. 

    Strategically, nothing has changed for the Russia. They are still winning. Snailing themselves along, but inevitably looking to clean entire Donbass and secure a land bridge to Krimea.  This war has "only" lasted a little bit more than a month. Media seem to think this is a skirmish where minor tactical battles are more decisive than Cannae. 

      ONLY politics will solve this conflict. It is sickening to watch how the Ukraianeans are bleeding to death, while receiving tons of weapons to bleed even more. 

      ONLY a US-Russia summit seem to be able to solve this now. All grace to Turkey for trying to meddle here, but this may even be too big for Xi and Modi to handle. 

This 'offensive' is nothing like the German defence against the Red army. It is an invasion, an act of war initiated by Russia. ONLY those with mud across their eyes and between their ears don't know that!

[NorskTiger]

5 hours ago, Fester said:

This 'offensive' is nothing like the German defence against the Red army. It is an invasion, an act of war initiated by Russia. ONLY those with mud across their eyes and between their ears don't know that!

Just to make it clear: Are you saying I have "mud accross my eyes and between my ears"?

 

   

[NorskTiger]

15 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Besides the fact I don't think Putin has any intention of agreeing to a peace deal until all of Ukraine is conquered. At least not one he wouldn't break in a year or two. That said, fact is this isn't a war for the US to end in a deal with Russia. The war is between Ukraine and Russia and only they can end it. Why is it up to the US, and what could they possibly give Russia to make them happy? 

Blame that on Russia, they are the ones who started and continue this war. Regardless we should excuse Ukraine for the fact they would rather fight than become part of Russia. 

 Are you going to keep saying this is ONLY between Russia and Ukraine until things really start blowing up?

   The Russian response was cruel and not very bright (IMHO), but let's not try to pretend all this happened without any prologue. 

[NorskTiger]

5 hours ago, Fester said:

This 'offensive' is nothing like the German defence against the Red army. It is an invasion, an act of war initiated by Russia. ONLY those with mud across their eyes and between their ears don't know that!

Militarily there ARE similarities. 

  The defenders are outnumbered, yet have good access to defensive arms and good supply lines to the West. 

[Fester]

6 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Just to make it clear: Are you saying I have "mud accross my eyes and between my ears"?

Why, is it something else?

[Fester]

3 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Militarily there ARE similarities. 

  The defenders are outnumbered, yet have good access to defensive arms and good supply lines to the West. 

The defenders are not outnumbered in Ukraine itself. The entire Russian Army is not there but significant numbers of Ukrainian (plus foreign) reservists and volunteers are. The Ukrainians have limited air power and only a small navy, both of which are outgunned and outnumbered. 

But your example still does not compare to this invasion.  

[NorskTiger]

18 minutes ago, Fester said:

Why, is it something else?

 So you don't want to answer. OK, I get it.