News Forum - Biden slams Russia’s Putin as a ‘butcher’, who “cannot remain in power”

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

I believe you took his quote out of the entire thing he said and misrepresented what he meant to say. 

What you believe is asinine. 

[NorskTiger]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

What you believe is asinine. 

You carry such a sophisticated usage of the English vocabulary. One should almost think you were a native speaker.. ;)

[Freeduhdumb]

The West continues to be perfectly content to drag the current situation out for as long as it takes to get what they want. If the West had had ANY sincere commitment to either the Minsk Accords or to peace in Ukraine, it would have long ago forced Kiev to enter into direct negotiations with the recognized breakaway republics of LPR and DPR in Donbass and to implement all the aspects of the Minsk Accords. It hasn't done so because it knows that a federated Ukrainian state, as envisaged by the Minsk agreement, would never support joining NATO as this would be vetoed by the Donbass. A federal Ukraine would also never join the EU, which demanded back in 2013, as a condition of doing business with Ukraibe, that Ukraine not participate in the Eurasian trading block. With that demand, the EU deliberately violated the Budapest Memorandum (its Article 3, prohibiting the use of economic blackmail for geopolitical ends), the only international legal document that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity. It was for his refusal to sign on to that EU bit of geopolitical extortion that Yanukovich had to be removed from power by the west in a coup de tat, regime change operation back in 2014. That regime change operation, and failure to fully implement those Minsk accords, is in fact what has set all of the events in motion that have lead up to our present situation. Now that the "West" has forced the hand of Russia... we are now witnessing the effects of REAL war. Let us not forget, there are no rules in war. The only question now is, will the West continue to push this into a wider global hot war. 

[Fester]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:44 PM, Rookiescot said:

Whats unfounded allegations got to do with it?

Has Trump condemned Czar Putins illagal invasion of the Ukraine?

Yes. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-condemns-russia-invasion-says-he-prays-ukrainian-people-2022-02-27/

"The Russian attack on Ukraine is appalling. We are praying for the proud people of Ukraine. God bless them all," Trump said.

[Fester]

30 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

The West continues to be perfectly content to drag the current situation out for as long as it takes to get what they want. If the West had had ANY sincere commitment to either the Minsk Accords or to peace in Ukraine, it would have long ago forced Kiev to enter into direct negotiations with the recognized breakaway republics of LPR and DPR in Donbass and to implement all the aspects of the Minsk Accords. It hasn't done so because it knows that a federated Ukrainian state, as envisaged by the Minsk agreement, would never support joining NATO as this would be vetoed by the Donbass. A federal Ukraine would also never join the EU, which demanded back in 2013, as a condition of doing business with Ukraibe, that Ukraine not participate in the Eurasian trading block. With that demand, the EU deliberately violated the Budapest Memorandum (its Article 3, prohibiting the use of economic blackmail for geopolitical ends), the only international legal document that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity. It was for his refusal to sign on to that EU bit of geopolitical extortion that Yanukovich had to be removed from power by the west in a coup de tat, regime change operation back in 2014. That regime change operation, and failure to fully implement those Minsk accords, is in fact what has set all of the events in motion that have lead up to our present situation. Now that the "West" has forced the hand of Russia... we are now witnessing the effects of REAL war. Let us not forget, there are no rules in war. The only question now is, will the West continue to push this into a wider global hot war. 

The Minsk Accords were never complied with. However, it seems that both sides were guilty of breaking the agreement and it will be difficult to demonstrate who is more guilty of that. In any case, this failure of the agreement does not give Putin any justification for this bloody murderous invasion.  

[PBS]

3 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

The West continues to be perfectly content to drag the current situation out for as long as it takes to get what they want. If the West had had ANY sincere commitment to either the Minsk Accords or to peace in Ukraine, it would have long ago forced Kiev to enter into direct negotiations with the recognized breakaway republics of LPR and DPR in Donbass and to implement all the aspects of the Minsk Accords. It hasn't done so because it knows that a federated Ukrainian state, as envisaged by the Minsk agreement, would never support joining NATO as this would be vetoed by the Donbass. A federal Ukraine would also never join the EU, which demanded back in 2013, as a condition of doing business with Ukraibe, that Ukraine not participate in the Eurasian trading block. With that demand, the EU deliberately violated the Budapest Memorandum (its Article 3, prohibiting the use of economic blackmail for geopolitical ends), the only international legal document that guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity. It was for his refusal to sign on to that EU bit of geopolitical extortion that Yanukovich had to be removed from power by the west in a coup de tat, regime change operation back in 2014. That regime change operation, and failure to fully implement those Minsk accords, is in fact what has set all of the events in motion that have lead up to our present situation. Now that the "West" has forced the hand of Russia... we are now witnessing the effects of REAL war. Let us not forget, there are no rules in war. The only question now is, will the West continue to push this into a wider global hot war. 

Enough of the Russian apaologist false claims. Yanukovich was rejected and forced out of power by the Ukainian people as he had walked back his promiss to apply for EU membership and aligned with Putin. BTW there are recognised Rules of War.

https://www.icrc.org/en/document/10-things-rules-of-war-geneva-conventions#:~:text=The rules of war%2C also,Prohibit targeting civilians.

It's a disengenious to claim the West forced the hand of Russia to declare war on the Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589

[Freeduhdumb]

4 hours ago, Fester said:

The Minsk Accords were never complied with. However, it seems that both sides were guilty of breaking the agreement and it will be difficult to demonstrate who is more guilty of that. In any case, this failure of the agreement does not give Putin any justification for this bloody murderous invasion.  

Your meager little paragraph grossly understates the totality of the situation and further demonstrates you don't really know WTF you are talking about... go do some serious research friend... really. 

[Freeduhdumb]

1 hour ago, PBS said:

Enough of the Russian apaologist false claims. Yanukovich was rejected and forced out of power by the Ukainian people as he had walked back his promiss to apply for EU membership and aligned with Putin. BTW there are recognised Rules of War.

https://www.icrc.org/en/document/10-things-rules-of-war-geneva-conventions#:~:text=The rules of war%2C also,Prohibit targeting civilians.

It's a disengenious to claim the West forced the hand of Russia to declare war on the Ukraine.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589

You have a clear gross mis-understanding of the actual events of 2013-2014. You have no business, you have no credibility, attempting to point to MSM sources that are demonstrably biased towards a particular narrative. Go find some actual credible sources, or more importantly go find some actual on the ground sources... What you are pulling off the internet is pure propaganda... no matter which side you want to look at it from. I was on the ground as an OSCE monitor from 2016-2021 and have an INTIMATE understanding of the situation.... Your BBC sources are slanted and biased, and will never be trustworthy. I happen to know this for a fact. 

[Fester]

15 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Your meager little paragraph grossly understates the totality of the situation and further demonstrates you don't really know WTF you are talking about... go do some serious research friend... really. 

Even if my meager little paragraph paragraph grossly understates the totality of the situation, does that mean that Putin is clear to attack Ukraine and then kill, maim, starve and rape its people in that process. Really?  

[Fester]

14 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

You have a clear gross mis-understanding of the actual events of 2013-2014. You have no business, you have no credibility, attempting to point to MSM sources that are demonstrably biased towards a particular narrative. Go find some actual credible sources, or more importantly go find some actual on the ground sources... What you are pulling off the internet is pure propaganda... no matter which side you want to look at it from. I was on the ground as an OSCE monitor from 2016-2021 and have an INTIMATE understanding of the situation.... Your BBC sources are slanted and biased, and will never be trustworthy. I happen to know this for a fact. 

Well, Mr. Monitor, as a self-professed expert and insider, why don't you present to us your credentials as well as your intimate and detailed understanding and explanation of the situation and its history? After that you can try and justify Putin's actions and behaviour if you can. 

Plenty of time. No rush.  

[Freeduhdumb]

6 minutes ago, Fester said:

Even if my meager little paragraph paragraph grossly understates the totality of the situation, does that mean that Putin is clear to attack Ukraine and then kill, maim, starve and rape its people in that process. Really?  

It's war... look at it however you want friend... It didn't have to come to this (go back and look at my OP again)... this is CLEARLY what the West pushed for... You're boring me now... friend. 

[Freeduhdumb]

1 minute ago, Fester said:

Well, Mr. Monitor, as a self-professed expert and insider, why don't you present to us your credentials as well as your intimate and detailed understanding and explanation of the situation and its history? After that you can try and justify Putin's actions and behaviour if you can. 

Plenty of time. No rush.  

I've done it many times.... if you have the time go and look at my page and my postings... Plenty of Time, no rush. 

[Freeduhdumb]

5 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I've done it many times.... if you have the time go and look at my page and my postings... Plenty of Time, no rush. 

Good Luck Friend.

[Fester]

9 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I've done it many times.... if you have the time go and look at my page and my postings... Plenty of Time, no rush. 

I rushed - didn't take long to look at your postings - no serious argument about anything. Nothing.

And you complain about credible sources and propaganda? Waste of time joker. 

 

[Freeduhdumb]

6 minutes ago, Fester said:

I rushed - didn't take long to look at your postings - no serious argument about anything. Nothing.

And you complain about credible sources and propaganda? Waste of time joker. 

You spent what 10 minutes? Who's the joker? Typical.

[Fester]

1 minute ago, Freeduhdumb said:

You spent what 10 minutes? Who's the joker? Typical.

Two minutes - nothing much there and nothing of substance. Why am I not surprised? Waste of time.

[Freeduhdumb]

8 minutes ago, Fester said:

Two minutes - nothing much there and nothing of substance. Why am I not surprised? Waste of time.

Good Luck friend!

[BigHewer]

I’m following this debate and I find it fascinating. It reminds me in many ways of the vaccine debate not so long ago. Then, just as now, alternative opinions were shouted down. 

I was on the side of the skeptics in the former debate. Questioning was dismissed out of hand. No different this time, although I am on the other side of the fence in terms of the mainstream narrative. But based on my experience, I am prepared to listen to alternative views because I’ve been in the same boat. I may not agree, but I’ll listen.

 

[vlad]

2 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

It's war... look at it however you want friend... It didn't have to come to this (go back and look at my OP again)... this is CLEARLY what the West pushed for... You're boring me now... friend. 

No in Putin's eyes it's not War it is a special operation.

[PBS]

10 hours ago, BigHewer said:

I’m following this debate and I find it fascinating. It reminds me in many ways of the vaccine debate not so long ago. Then, just as now, alternative opinions were shouted down. 

I was on the side of the skeptics in the former debate. Questioning was dismissed out of hand. No different this time, although I am on the other side of the fence in terms of the mainstream narrative. But based on my experience, I am prepared to listen to alternative views because I’ve been in the same boat. I may not agree, but I’ll listen.

What's the point of considering unsupported allegations. Some members keep on posting their stuff without any credible supported links - they are just a complete waste of time.

[Fanta]

10 hours ago, vlad said:

No in Putin's eyes it's not War it is a special operation.

It is a military conflict between 2 countries so you can call it whatever you want and it is still covered under international law and the Geneva Convention. This has been clarified already , a HRW link has been provided and is not disputed. 

[Fanta]

9 minutes ago, PBS said:

What's the point of considering unsupported allegations. Some members keep on posting their stuff without any credible supported links - they are just a complete waste of time.

You may well ask what is the point of considering any allegations - supported or unsupported. Allegations require proof before they become fact. Believing one side without listening to the other is a kangaroo court, the verdict before the trial. And “credible” is the same as beauty - it exists only in the eyes of the beholder. Look at the Talk pages on Wikipedia articles discussing allegations - often their credible, verified sources are the MSM. The same MSM that is the main conduit for propaganda. The same MSM with the motto of “If it bleeds, it leads”. The same MSM that taught so many the benefits of click bait. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? Or see on YouTube? 

[PBS]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You may well ask what is the point of considering any allegations - supported or unsupported. Allegations require proof before they become fact. Believing one side without listening to the other is a kangaroo court, the verdict before the trial. And “credible” is the same as beauty - it exists only in the eyes of the beholder. Look at the Talk pages on Wikipedia articles discussing allegations - often their credible, verified sources are the MSM. The same MSM that is the main conduit for propaganda. The same MSM with the motto of “If it bleeds, it leads”. The same MSM that taught so many the benefits of click bait. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? Or see on YouTube? 

As soon as anyone starts our with claiming MSM news sources are just propaganda I switch off. MSM are in the main quite credible news and will acknowledge and correct inaccuracies in their news reporting. Opinion pieces are another matter - they are just opinion pieces, which if you can be bothered can fact check. On the other side of the coin in the vast majority of cases other sources are just propaganda and misinformation which has been proven time and time again, yet some members keep on repeating the BS and in parrallel refuse to identify their sources - it's boring and time wasting.

[Fanta]

1 minute ago, PBS said:

As soon as anyone starts our with claiming MSM news sources are just propaganda I switch off. MSM are in the main quite credible news and will acknowledge and correct inaccuracies in their news reporting. Opinion pieces are another matter - they are just opinion pieces, which if you can be bothered can fact check. On the other side of the coin in the vast majority of cases other sources are just propaganda and misinformation which has been proven time and time again, yet some members keep on repeating the BS and in parrallel refuse to identify their sources - it's boring and time wasting.

Our MSM is Western media and I have seen enough dubious “facts” in them to be cautious. Unsurprisingly the Russian media is rarely viewed as credible by the MSM. A forum rule is that anything stated as a fact must have verification so outright BS gets called out pretty fast. Both sides use propaganda and misinformation, especially in matters like this. An opinion is an opinion and that seems to be what is upsetting you, not false allegations. 

[BigHewer]

52 minutes ago, PBS said:

What's the point of considering unsupported allegations. Some members keep on posting their stuff without any credible supported links - they are just a complete waste of time.

Where did I mention unsupported allegations PBS? You’re taking a positive and turning it into a negative.

So there’s no point listening to opinions one doesn’t agree with? Right.   Jolly good. As you were.