News Forum - OPINION – Thai government making it hard to live and work in Thailand

[Pinetree]

12 hours ago, MrNovax said:

if Thai's are best suited for a job they have every advantage at receiving the work.  if a foreigner can out compete the locals that means that the locals are not properly suited/capable of the work.  To then deny the foreigner the ability to perform the work means that the customer needs to either over pay, receive a substandard product, or go without

No country in the World does that. Try that argument t in any EU county, or in the US, you will get short shift. quite rightly. They all prioritize their own workers and their own communities.  The trouble here is that western blinkered folk seem to believe that they have a God given right to live anywhere they wish (visa free of course) and get whatever employment they wish and take the jobs out of the hands of locals. It's  a very unattractive trait in many here and elsewhere in Asia 

[francoa]

20 hours ago, AAS said:

Looking after your own first  is what every country does and Thailand is doing just that

nope, Europe does not do it…same as we dont overcharge tourists, as Thailans does. Thailand is in many ways pretty shitty police money grabbing racist country :)

 

Dont even try to compare them to western countries who keep their dignity and fairplay

[Noble_Design]

9 minutes ago, francoa said:

nope, Europe does not do it…same as we dont overcharge tourists, as Thailans does. Thailand is in many ways pretty shitty police money grabbing racist country :)

Dont even try to compare them to western countries who keep their dignity and fairplay

If it's that bad then why do so many foreigners still yearn to come here, to live here, to work here and to retire here? Or at least to complain if they can't 

[francoa]

10 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

If it's that bad then why do so many foreigners still yearn to come here, to live here, to work here and to retire here? Or at least to complain if they can't 

That is not the point. Everyone has a different needs and priorities. I am just commenting on that nonsense saying that every country does that.

 

And I can also assure you, that if staying in Vietnam would be less complicated, many people would be there. As that country has everything better towards foreigners, except some shitty healthcare :)

Edited March 8, 2022 by francoa

[Noble_Design]

1 minute ago, francoa said:

That is not the point. Everyone has a different needs and priorities. I am just commenting on your nonsense saying that every country does that.

I didn't say that...

[Pinetree]

6 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

If it's that bad then why do so many foreigners still yearn to come here, to live here, to work here and to retire here? Or at least to complain if they can't 

Some foreigners, maybe even a big number of those living here in LOS, feel that everything must be done to make their life easy and comfortable, regardless of Thai National laws and immigration rules, or how this impacts the local job market and social cohesion here. I hear the moans , Its western arrogance and it is not a nice trait in anyone. Thank fully, my friend group do not exhibit this trait and they are just happy/thankful to be left alone to live their lives here in this most attractive of environments and just fit in with what needs to be done to do that. 

[Soidog]

20 hours ago, Cabra said:

You would find this same behavior in any country suffering from significant unemployment. Citizens first. Expats second. You probably should have contemplated that when you took the job to begin with.

Significant unemployment? The official figures for Q3 2021 was only 2.3%. This is the problem with the BS reporting of unemployment and many other official figures. They simply don’t add up as a cohesive message. Before the pandemic, Thailand has <1% unemployment. So why on earth would you limit or make it difficult to attract foreign skills? It doesn’t add up of course because the real unemployment rate is probably more like 8%-12%. That figure stacks up with a policy of job protectionism, but of course it’s a negative message to investors and that’s not allowed. 

[LoongFred]

11 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Significant unemployment? The official figures for Q3 2021 was only 2.3%. This is the problem with the BS reporting of unemployment and many other official figures. They simply don’t add up as a cohesive message. Before the pandemic, Thailand has <1% unemployment. So why on earth would you limit or make it difficult to attract foreign skills? It doesn’t add up of course because the real unemployment rate is probably more like 8%-12%. That figure stacks up with a policy of job protectionism, but of course it’s a negative message to investors and that’s not allowed. 

Real unemployment based on what? Is this another one of your unfounded thoughts or is it based on facts. If factual please share the source. Thailand employment is based on both formal and informal employment. It works well for most of the Thais.  My nephew who is a heavy equipment operator often stays home too be with his family, but he works in the local community doing various things. He is always making money to support his family. 

 

[Soidog]

18 hours ago, Cabra said:

Still does not change the position of any government when it comes to giving access to jobs... Citizens first. Expats second

Sorry @Cabra but I have to disagree. Protectionist policies can significantly affect the development of a country. What Thailand should be doing is attracting the brightest and the best. Growing the economy and using that money to develop education and the country overall. The problem Thailand has is it’s wealth gap. The 50 or so mega rich Thai families who own 95% of its wealth are perfectly happy with how things are. It’s the millions of people struggling to get by each month who suffer these inward and backward looking policies. 
 

Of course protecting your own people and making sure they have work is the right things to do. But the smart countries looking to develop look beyond  that. Just look at the people running large companies here. Thai Airways is a classic example. Totally unqualified and inexperienced to get it out of the mess it’s in. Can you imagine Thailand ever doing what the likes of the UAE has done to develop it’s aviation industry and employ Sir Tim Clarke as President of Emirates to grow its business? Or Michael Doresam as it’s CFO or Tony Douglas as the CEO over at Etihad? Similarly in the West we have Sundar Pichai as CEO at Google (a reasonably successful business!) It’s what should happen to benefit the whole country but of course it takes wealth away from those top 50 and that’s unacceptable. We really shouldn’t condone it or be fooled by the protectionist policy. It’s protecting the wrong people. 

[LoongFred]

19 hours ago, Hunter said:

I think the Thai government now prefers IT professionals to come and work in Thailand.

Are you referring to the DN who hang out in coffee shops? Mostly just hangers on, but true IT professionals would probably be ok.

[Cabra]

5 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Significant unemployment? The official figures for Q3 2021 was only 2.3%. This is the problem with the BS reporting of unemployment and many other official figures. They simply don’t add up as a cohesive message. Before the pandemic, Thailand has <1% unemployment. So why on earth would you limit or make it difficult to attract foreign skills? It doesn’t add up of course because the real unemployment rate is probably more like 8%-12%. That figure stacks up with a policy of job protectionism, but of course it’s a negative message to investors and that’s not allowed. 

The government messaging about employment and the economy is certainly confusing at best... Is the economy decimated (particularly restaurants, entertainment and tourism) due to covid with 10s of  thousands of Thais out of work, or is there nearly full employment (<3% unemployment)? Or is it as I was reading yesterday... a looming labor shortage of nearly 700k workers. I don't think anyone knows. Part of that miscounting/misrepresentation is because so much of the Thai workforce works casually and informally in many unlicensed and small family/privately owned businesses (including agriculture). But at the end of the day, government will always prioritize citizens over expats when it comes to employment (right or wrong). If even 1 job can go to an expat that can be done by a local (ie,. dive instructor, etc.), expats likely lose that coin toss. All that against a backdrop of government schemes to draw in highly skilled (a very broad term open to interpretation) foreigners with promises of easy visas. I'd like it if they made it easier for foreigners to work (any job), but I'm not holding my breath.

[Soidog]

5 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

Real unemployment based on what? Is this another one of your unfounded thoughts or is it based on facts. If factual please share the source. Thailand employment is based on both formal and informal employment. It works well for most of the Thais.  My nephew who is a heavy equipment operator often stays home too be with his family, but he works in the local community doing various things. He is always making money to support his family. 

No Fred it’s not one of my unfounded thoughts anymore than your sample size of one when it comes to your Nephew.
 

Walk around any City, Town or Village and you will see the unemployment is far higher than some made up nonsense from the Thai government. I don’t call a kid aged 17 helping his mum cook some noodles for a few hours a night “Employed”. You know Fred, like the employment you enjoyed for so many years back home. The type of  Employment that affords you the financial comfort blanket that you sleep under each night allowing you to make such myopic remarks. 

[LoongFred]

4 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Sorry @Cabra but I have to disagree. Protectionist policies can significantly affect the development of a country. What Thailand should be doing is attracting the brightest and the best. Growing the economy and using that money to develop education and the country overall. The problem Thailand has is it’s wealth gap. The 50 or so mega rich Thai families who own 95% of its wealth are perfectly happy with how things are. It’s the millions of people struggling to get by each month who suffer these inward and backward looking policies. 
 

Of course protecting your own people and making sure they have work is the right things to do. But the smart countries looking to develop look beyond  that. Just look at the people running large companies here. Thai Airways is a classic example. Totally unqualified and inexperienced to get it out of the mess it’s in. Can you imagine Thailand ever doing what the likes of the UAE has done to develop it’s aviation industry and employ Sir Tim Clarke as President of Emirates to grow its business? Or Michael Doresam as it’s CFO or Tony Douglas as the CEO over at Etihad? Similarly in the West we have Sundar Pichai as CEO at Google (a reasonably successful business!) It’s what should happen to benefit the whole country but of course it takes wealth away from those top 50 and that’s unacceptable. We really shouldn’t condone it or be fooled by the protectionist policy. It’s protecting the wrong people. 

Oh my. Are you bowling a international expert on business development? I thought you were just a part timer looking for your day in the sun. Your 6 months here and 6 months there  isn't the commitment major firms are looking for. Also they are primarily looking for seasoned professional with specific skills or younger bright workers with great potential. I however am retired and not interested. 

[Soidog]

1 minute ago, Cabra said:

The government messaging about employment and the economy is certainly confusing at best... Is the economy decimated (particularly restaurants, entertainment and tourism) due to covid with 10s of  thousands of Thais out of work, or is there nearly full employment (<3% unemployment)? Or is it as I was reading yesterday... a looming labor shortage of nearly 700k workers. I don't think anyone knows. Part of that miscounting/misrepresentation is because so much of the Thai workforce works casually and informally in many unlicensed and small family/privately owned businesses (including agriculture). But at the end of the day, government will always prioritize citizens over expats when it comes to employment (right or wrong). If even 1 job can go to an expat that can be done by a local (ie,. dive instructor, etc.), expats likely lose that coin toss. All that against a backdrop of government schemes to draw in highly skilled (a very broad term open to interpretation) foreigners with promises of easy visas. I'd like it if they made it easier for foreigners to work (any job), but I'm not holding my breath.

I totally agree that jobs requiring low skill sets should be ring fenced for locals until such time there aren’t enough locals to fill the jobs. However, keeping professional and highly skilled work for locals does hold a developing country back. 
 

The point you make about informal and casual work is a good one. However, there is no reason why this data can’t be collected and assessed properly. Half the Thais I know who have informal or casual work don’t even bother registering with the labour office. What’s the point? You get no support when out of work and only draw the attention of the tax man or other corrupt officials wanting their slice of your hard labour. The country is a total mess when it comes to such data. The real issue here is corruption and the wealth gap. It affects almost any topic we care to discuss. 

[Cabra]

6 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Sorry @Cabra but I have to disagree. Protectionist policies can significantly affect the development of a country. What Thailand should be doing is attracting the brightest and the best. Growing the economy and using that money to develop education and the country overall. The problem Thailand has is it’s wealth gap. The 50 or so mega rich Thai families who own 95% of its wealth are perfectly happy with how things are. It’s the millions of people struggling to get by each month who suffer these inward and backward looking policies. 
 

Of course protecting your own people and making sure they have work is the right things to do. But the smart countries looking to develop look beyond  that. Just look at the people running large companies here. Thai Airways is a classic example. Totally unqualified and inexperienced to get it out of the mess it’s in. Can you imagine Thailand ever doing what the likes of the UAE has done to develop it’s aviation industry and employ Sir Tim Clarke as President of Emirates to grow its business? Or Michael Doresam as it’s CFO or Tony Douglas as the CEO over at Etihad? Similarly in the West we have Sundar Pichai as CEO at Google (a reasonably successful business!) It’s what should happen to benefit the whole country but of course it takes wealth away from those top 50 and that’s unacceptable. We really shouldn’t condone it or be fooled by the protectionist policy. It’s protecting the wrong people. 

I don't disagree with you. Protectionism is bad business. I'm simply speaking to Thailand and what they are doing / have done historically. When it comes to Thai jobs... their position has been citizens first and expats second. I'm not surprised by what happens to expats, when in the case of the open letter about a dive instructor, they lose that battle. If I worked here, I'd be prepared to the potential to lose that battle too. 

[Soidog]

3 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

Oh my. Are you bowling a international expert on business development? I thought you were just a part timer looking for your day in the sun. Your 6 months here and 6 months there  isn't the commitment major firms are looking for. Also they are primarily looking for seasoned professional with specific skills or younger bright workers with great potential. I however am retired and not interested. 

Once again Fred you make assumptions about me. I’m one of those lucky people who can do most of my work from anywhere in the world. Don’t assume that everyone who comes to Thailand for 50%-75% of the time spends it doing what you do. Some of us have real productive work all year round. 

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, francoa said:

nope, Europe does not do it…same as we dont overcharge tourists, as Thailans does. Thailand is in many ways pretty shitty police money grabbing racist country :)

Dont even try to compare them to western countries who keep their dignity and fairplay

Europe absolutely does do that

 

Canada and the US does it as well

 

I have worked in Canada for 16 years on  work permits

Every 3 years when they renew my work permit my firm has to advertise my job and then prove that a Canadian can't do my job

 

My job is somewhat unique in that I have accounts that we can point out a Canadian couldn't bring with them into the job

[LoongFred]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

Sorry @Cabra but I have to disagree. Protectionist policies can significantly affect the development of a country. What Thailand should be doing is attracting the brightest and the best. Growing the economy and using that money to develop education and the country overall. The problem Thailand has is it’s wealth gap. The 50 or so mega rich Thai families who own 95% of its wealth are perfectly happy with how things are. It’s the millions of people struggling to get by each month who suffer these inward and backward looking policies. 
 

Of course protecting your own people and making sure they have work is the right things to do. But the smart countries looking to develop look beyond  that. Just look at the people running large companies here. Thai Airways is a classic example. Totally unqualified and inexperienced to get it out of the mess it’s in. Can you imagine Thailand ever doing what the likes of the UAE has done to develop it’s aviation industry and employ Sir Tim Clarke as President of Emirates to grow its business? Or Michael Doresam as it’s CFO or Tony Douglas as the CEO over at Etihad? Similarly in the West we have Sundar Pichai as CEO at Google (a reasonably successful business!) It’s what should happen to benefit the whole country but of course it takes wealth away from those top 50 and that’s unacceptable. We really shouldn’t condone it or be fooled by the protectionist policy. It’s protecting the wrong people. 

Is this something you thought of yourself? Now you can tackle world problems. Why waste your time on Thailand when you could solve many more problems?

[Soidog]

2 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

Is this something you thought of yourself? Now you can tackle world problems. Why waste your time on Thailand when you could solve many more problems?

I’m not wasting my time in Thailand Fred, but thanks for the vote of confidence. I’m keeping too busy at the moment to solve other problems. 
 

Anyway. Enough of shooting fish in a barrel chatting to you. You have your afternoon nap. Europe opens for business in an hour and so I’ll be too busy to answer your silliness. 

[LoongFred]

Sorry but this story doesn't seem to go  anywhere. I need to take a  break and do something productive. Good bye to  Cabra and Marc, your comments are consistently great.

[MikeV]

7 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Europe absolutely does do that

Canada and the US does it as well

I have worked in Canada for 16 years on  work permits

Every 3 years when they renew my work permit my firm has to advertise my job and then prove that a Canadian can't do my job

My job is somewhat unique in that I have accounts that we can point out a Canadian couldn't bring with them into the job

 

Yep. My close friend left Canada not because he wanted to but being worn out by the work visa process. He worked for the Canadian Govt.

I think many Europeans don't understand that working in other countries is generally a difficulty beyond EU situations.

The people who do it without personal effort are highly paid and in demand such that their employer is willing to take care of it.

It's  unfortunately not typically for diving instructors and that's not a dig at them in any way. Just reallity.

I'm not saying it's a good thing but it's reality. People expect to get away with things here that don't fly most anywhere.

 

[Marc26]

7 minutes ago, MikeV said:

Yep. My close friend left Canada not because he wanted to but being worn out by the work visa process. He worked for the Canadian Govt.

I think many Europeans don't understand that working in other countries is generally a difficulty beyond EU situations.

The people who do it without personal effort are highly paid and in demand such that their employer is willing to take care of it.

It's  unfortunately not typically for diving instructors and that's not a dig at them in any way. Just reallity.

I'm not saying it's a good thing but it's reality. People expect to get away with things here that don't fly most anywhere.

Ive known couples where one has gotten a job in Europe and the spouse is not allowed to work there

 

At least in Canada my wife gets a work permit under my work permit 

And hers is actually better than mine!

She gets an "open work permit " which let's her work at any job

 

Mine is tied to my firm and my location 

[MrNovax]

10 hours ago, Pinetree said:

No country in the World does that. Try that argument t in any EU county, or in the US, you will get short shift. quite rightly. They all prioritize their own workers and their own communities.  The trouble here is that western blinkered folk seem to believe that they have a God given right to live anywhere they wish (visa free of course) and get whatever employment they wish and take the jobs out of the hands of locals. It's  a very unattractive trait in many here and elsewhere in Asia 

Singapore and Hong Kong have thrived from this type of mindset.  Just because most counties enforce bad policy doesnt make the policy any less bad.  

Allowing foreigners to work inside a country doesnt "steal jobs" from the locals.  If anything, it creates jobs for the locals.  More people and more economic activity means more economic opportunity.  Human resources are a resource and attracting talent is always beneficial to the local economy.    It would be like saying you dont want google in your country because it would impede on "the locals" creating a competitor.  

The amount of economic illiteracy world wide would be stunning if it wasn't so obviously that the "education" system perpetuations all this nonsense.   

[Pinetree]

19 minutes ago, MrNovax said:

Singapore and Hong Kong have thrived from this type of mindset.

I have worked in both places and in Taiwan.  They all three have incredibly tough polices for the employment of skilled foreign workers.  The work permits  systems operating in all three requires high levels of experience/skills and high qualifications, or employment by a foreign owned company on expat terms, such as international accountancy and law firms.  All three usually require a reasonable level of proficiency in Mandarin.   Many posts are reserved for citizens that foreigners just cannot access, such as airline aircrew, some  medical specialties and university posts.  To compare them to Thailand is misleading as, I'm sorry to say,  many expat workers here are not so highly qualified, experienced or skilled, if they were, no doubt they would be working in one of the three high standard countries quoted above, earning higher salaries and with a much higher standard of living. 

[Soidog]

42 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

I'm sorry to say,  many expat workers here are not so highly qualified, experienced or skilled, if they were, no doubt they would be working in one of the three high standard countries quoted above, earning higher salaries and with a much higher standard of living. 

Surely that’s a chicken & egg situation. There aren’t many expats here who are highly skilled or qualified as they are all elsewhere. If they made it easier then there would be. Apart from the odd delay in issuing the right visa,  I’ve never experienced a problem getting a work permit in Thailand. The companies I worked for took care of it all. I can only go off what others say in regard to the difficulties in going it alone