News Forum - National park officers rescue 5 German tourists lost in Koh Phang Ngan forest

[Thaiger]

Officers from the Than Sadet National Park on Koh Phang Ngan have rescued a group of 5 German tourists after they got lost yesterday while on a forest hike. The 4 women and 1 man had been doing the Khao Ra hike, which takes in the highest peak on the island, when heavy rainfall caused them to get lost. A search party was formed when the group phoned the national park office and asked for help. According to a Bangkok Post report, police, administrative officials, and park rangers rallied to look for the tourists, starting at the trail to the […]

The story National park officers rescue 5 German tourists lost in Koh Phang Ngan forest as seen on Thaiger News.

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[Guest1]

Honestly, how can someone on a hike get lost and not find the way back he or she came  before? They had approximately minimum 5 tracking devices with them. You track your way on a nature hike with an app, these days. And by the looks, that are millenials, so they should be used to smartphones , tracking apps and that these apps are storing the opened sat pictures, in case there is no mobil data. Do they minimum have a bill to pay?

[Poolie]

  On 3/2/2022 at 5:37 AM, Guest1 said:

Honestly, how can someone on a hike get lost and not find the way back he or she came  before? They had approximately minimum 5 tracking devices with them. You track your way on a nature hike with an app, these days. And by the looks, that are millenials, so they should be used to smartphones , tracking apps and that these apps are storing the opened sat pictures, in case there is no mobil data. Do they minimum have a bill to pay?

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You sink too mutt.

[Stonker]

  On 3/2/2022 at 5:37 AM, Guest1 said:

Honestly, how can someone on a hike get lost and not find the way back he or she came  before? They had approximately minimum 5 tracking devices with them. You track your way on a nature hike with an app, these days. And by the looks, that are millenials, so they should be used to smartphones , tracking apps and that these apps are storing the opened sat pictures, in case there is no mobil data.

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Maybe you should try this for yourself before condemning them.

It happens all the time, in every country, and the apps are useless when visibility is limited.  The apps can only act as a general guide rather than guiding your every step, and if you simply follow the 'arrow' when the track turns by just a metre around a tree, boulder or dip then you're off the track and lost.

That applies everywhere, whether you're in the mist in the Cairngorms or in the jungle in a rainstorm in Koh Pha Ngan.

  On 3/2/2022 at 5:37 AM, Guest1 said:

Do they minimum have a bill to pay?

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Yes, let's bill everyone when they call out the lifeguards or need rescuing, even when it's no fault of their own and down to bad weather or an accident.

[23RD]

Well that NAVEX ended in disaster but I'd be very willing to give the 4 x German girls some Map reading lessons.

[Rookiescot]

Well he missed a trick.

The first thing he should have done is build a rudimentary shelter using all their clothing and then they could have huddled together under it for warmth. 

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 5:55 AM, Stonker said:

Maybe you should try this for yourself before condemning them.

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Have done that, been there, doing it all the time, when going on a new trail or nature walk.

And yes, you can get of a couple of meters.

Just mostly because the setup for your OWN tracked hikes is set to 10 secs - min.10 meters or such. You want it more detailed, cut that down to 1s/1m. And still, the direction is right, as soon you stay "on track"

Just these guys didn't even use the GPS function in their phones, to tell the rangers their exact position. Or the rangers wouldnt have to search and shout for them.

Also, with just one click, you can download even tracks while in the Jungle. Till now I have not been in a place, where I could do a phonecall, but not had a mobile data connection.

Na, such "getting lost" is avoidable, in 2022!

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 5:43 AM, Poolie said:

You sink too mutt.

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Guilty! 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Faz
gif removed

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 6:02 AM, 23RD said:

Well that NAVEX ended in disaster but I'd be very willing to give the 4 x German girls some Map reading lessons.

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Maximum 3 of them!

[23RD]

  On 3/2/2022 at 7:04 AM, Guest1 said:

Maximum 3 of them!

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Definitely the fat birds on her own 5555

[Cabra]

  On 3/2/2022 at 5:37 AM, Guest1 said:

Honestly, how can someone on a hike get lost and not find the way back he or she came  before? They had approximately minimum 5 tracking devices with them. You track your way on a nature hike with an app, these days. And by the looks, that are millenials, so they should be used to smartphones , tracking apps and that these apps are storing the opened sat pictures, in case there is no mobil data. Do they minimum have a bill to pay?

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One word... psychedelics

[Stonker]

  On 3/2/2022 at 7:01 AM, Guest1 said:

Have done that, been there, doing it all the time, when going on a new trail or nature walk.

And yes, you can get of a couple of meters.

Just mostly because the setup for your OWN tracked hikes is set to 10 secs - min.10 meters or such. You want it more detailed, cut that down to 1s/1m.

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Sorry, but to put it bluntly that's absolute bollox and could get people killed.

Civilian GPS doesn't go down to "1s/1m" or even "a couple of metres" (military GPS is no better, but the  military generally use two receiver systems, some with an augmentation system, while civilians generally only use one) .

That's not my opinion, but fact.

Garmin, the most popular, have an average  accuracy of 15 metres:

"GARMIN GPS receivers are accurate to within 15 meters on average. Newer GARMIN GPS receivers with WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) capability can improve accuracy to less than three meters on average."

https://www.gpscentral.ca/aboutgps.htm

Even in an ideal setting, without augmentation you're not going to get below three metres, normally nearer to five:

"GPS-enabled smartphones are typically accurate to within a 4.9 m (16 ft.) radius under open sky (view source at ION.org). However, their accuracy worsens near buildings, bridges, and trees."

I think it'd be a reasonable assumption to make that in a Thai National Park on Koh Phang Ngan there were more than a few trees in the vicinity.

  On 3/2/2022 at 7:01 AM, Guest1 said:

And still, the direction is right, as soon you stay "on track"

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In heavy rain in the jungle, as they were, there is no visible "track" to stay on.

  On 3/2/2022 at 7:01 AM, Guest1 said:

Just these guys didn't even use the GPS function in their phones, to tell the rangers their exact position. Or the rangers wouldnt have to search and shout for them.

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Like most people they were probably completely unaware of how to "use the GPS function in their phones, to tell the rangers their exact position." They were young tourists doing what should have been a 6km, 3 hour relatively easy walk, at the most, not a trans-Amazon expedition.

https://triptins.com/khao-ra-hike-koh-phangan/

https://www.alltrails.com/trail/thailand/surat-thani/khao-ra-lookout-trail

  On 3/2/2022 at 7:01 AM, Guest1 said:

Also, with just one click, you can download even tracks while in the Jungle.

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Not of that route you can't, since while referred to it's not available to download:

https://www.wikiloc.com/hiking-trails/khao-ra-viewpoint-26071448

https://digitaltravelcouple.com/6-best-koh-phangan-hikes/

Sorry, but the advice you're giving is wildly misleading and downright dangerous.

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 9:12 AM, Stonker said:

Sorry, but to put it bluntly that's absolute bollox 

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You are right, exactly THAT is your answer!

The 10sec or 10 m, or 1sec and 1m is a working info for the app, every 10s, but minimum 10m moving, or every 1 sec. , minimum 1 meter moving "seen" by the app. 10/10 is a lot less waypoints, so smaller file, but only every 10s/10 meters a straight line to the next 10/10point.

And in case you would try that, on a modern smartphone, you would be surprised, what GPS PLUS A-GPS is doing with the accuracy. 3m is the average under open sky, if a bit shaded (houses can do that) 5, sometimes 10m it is.

and you are right, Garmins are sometimes even worse. Or, at least, have been, no A-GPS ( I have not used one since 2012), as everyone will find out, who loads an older Garmin track into a smartphone and walks that track. only:  Even THAT gives you a direction you just have to and can follow. 

But that aside, the GPS limitation, these days, with mostly TWO systems in use, from modern smartphones, is a lot better. It is almost always "only" a height difference, that the GPS is adjusted to, for private use, but the track is often not more as 3-5 meters away from your real position. (Even without A-GPS on/available)

  On 3/2/2022 at 9:12 AM, Stonker said:

In heavy rain in the jungle, as they were, there is no visible "track" to stay on.

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You still have no clue, what I was writing about. Or you did read selective, b/c you have a fixed opinion. I did not mean the trail, I meant the TRACK, the one your phone is showing you. That on your phones display is called track! you may know it from google maps or google earth, both works on your phone, too!

And don't start that you don't get a signal in the deep jungle in rain. Been there, done that. It just may need a while, till the arrow reacts on direction changes.

And wikiloc was just the first (and last), I looked for a track.  There are others. And I just looked for one to Khao Ra hike, assuming, cause that is the highest peak. (which seemed to be wrong from my side, lookin where they got found)    But anyway:

My point is, you check on that before! Or minimum you start tracking your hike from the starting point. Till the end. So you have ALWAYS a return path to follow! Because the inaccuracy is not adding up, it is always just relative the same inaccuracy to your real position to the track (on your display) you follow.

Get yourself a tracking app and just try it out, mate. You would be surprised, what has changed since Garmin made pocket GPS available! 

  On 3/2/2022 at 9:12 AM, Stonker said:

Like most people they were probably completely unaware of how to "use the GPS function in their phones, to tell the rangers their exact position.

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Millennials are the one, BORN into mobile technology. But I agree, they may not even be able to do so, WoW however, on the phone ....! ;-)

But that is totally AVOIDABLE!

Since everyone , these days, is using google maps, and google maps works even without a internet connection, blank screen with blue dot, in worst case, EVERYONE has its GPS location at hand, no other app needed:

Switch on GPS (If your GPS has a map in cache, you don't even need "GPS on"

hold your finger longer on the blue dot , or on any wanted location

Voila, on top you see the coordinates.

Which you can at least tell the Rangers over the phone!

(actually, THEY should have asked for it!)

Edited March 2, 2022 by Faz
gif removed

[Stonker]

  On 3/2/2022 at 10:17 AM, Guest1 said:

You are right, exactly THAT is your answer!

The 10sec or 10 m, or 1sec and 1m is a working info for the app, every 10s, but minimum 10m moving, or every 1 sec. , minimum 1 meter moving "seen" by the app. 10/10 is a lot less waypoints, so smaller file, but only every 10s/10 meters a straight line to the next 10/10point.

And in case you would try that, on a modern smartphone, you would be surprised, what GPS PLUS A-GPS is doing with the accuracy. 3m is the average under open sky, if a bit shaded (houses can do that) 5, sometimes 10m it is.

and you are right, Garmins are sometimes even worse. Or, at least, have been, no A-GPS ( I have not used one since 2012), as everyone will find out, who loads an older Garmin track into a smartphone and walks that track. only:  Even THAT gives you a direction you just have to and can follow. 

But that aside, the GPS limitation, these days, with mostly TWO systems in use, from modern smartphones, is a lot better. It is almost always "only" a height difference, that the GPS is adjusted to, for private use, but the track is often not more as 3-5 meters away from your real position. (Even without A-GPS on/available)

You still have no clue, what I was writing about. Or you did read selective, b/c you have a fixed opinion. I did not mean the trail, I meant the TRACK, the one your phone is showing you. That on your phones display is called track! you may know it from google maps or google earth, both works on your phone, too!

And don't start that you don't get a signal in the deep jungle in rain. Been there, done that. It just may need a while, till the arrow reacts on direction changes.

And wikiloc was just the first (and last), I looked for a track.  There are others. And I just looked for one to Khao Ra hike, assuming, cause that is the highest peak. (which seemed to be wrong from my side, lookin where they got found)    But anyway:

My point is, you check on that before! Or minimum you start tracking your hike from the starting point. Till the end. So you have ALWAYS a return path to follow! Because the inaccuracy is not adding up, it is always just relative the same inaccuracy to your real position to the track (on your display) you follow.

Get yourself a tracking app and just try it out, mate. You would be surprised, what has changed since Garmin made pocket GPS available! 

Millennials are the one, BORN into mobile technology. But I agree, they may not even be able to do so, WoW however, on the phone ....! ;-)

But that is totally AVOIDABLE!

Since everyone , these days, is using google maps, and google maps works even without a internet connection, blank screen with blue dot, in worst case, EVERYONE has its GPS location at hand, no other app needed:

Switch on GPS (If your GPS has a map in cache, you don't even need "GPS on"

hold your finger longer on the blue dot , or on any wanted location

Voila, on top you see the coordinates.

Which you can at least tell the Rangers over the phone!

(actually, THEY should have asked for it!)

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Sorry, no offence, but I can't be bothered to argue about this as you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about and people like you get people killed.

That isn't being offensive, since it could stop someone losing their life because they've believed what you've written and followed your advice.

The link I gave - https://www.gpscentral.ca/aboutgps.htm  - is as definitive as it comes and anyone who thinks they can go anywhere on or off the beaten track and rely on an app on their phone or even on an advanced GPS system, as you say, to give them a route accurate down to one metre moving at 2kph regardless of the area and conditions, with limited visibility,   would be putting their own life in danger as well as the lives of the rescue teams who've increasingly had to rescue them because they thought they could just rely on GPS.

Dangerous doesn't go anywhere near describing these sort of posts.

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 1:58 PM, Stonker said:

Sorry, no offence, but I can't be bothered to argue about this as you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about and people like you get people killed.

That isn't being offensive, since it could stop someone losing their life because they've believed what you've written and followed your advice.

The link I gave - https://www.gpscentral.ca/aboutgps.htm  - is as definitive as it comes and anyone who thinks they can go anywhere on or off the beaten track and rely on an app on their phone or even on an advanced GPS system, as you say, to give them a route accurate down to one metre moving at 2kph regardless of the area and conditions, with limited visibility,   would be putting their own life in danger as well as the lives of the rescue teams who've increasingly had to rescue them because they thought they could just rely on GPS.

Dangerous doesn't go anywhere near describing these sort of posts.

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I get it, you are neither a hiker in unknown territory, nor one who is doing orienteering or geocaching.

That is ok, but you still conveniently outsource of your "can't be bothered to argue" (Understandable, without own experience! No offense)  the fact, that you have obviously no actual upper midrange or top level phone, or NEVER used the GPS function in it, with a proper tracking app. Aside for navigating on a road, perhaps, with google maps. And that they don't even had an idea, how to get the search troops there position with this pre installed app. They had 5 phones for selfies, but no one had any idea about GPS? Stay on roads, then!

They didn't go bushwhacking, dude, they got surprised on "in use" trails, perhaps a lot less in use, as normal, but that is hardly "jungle walk". Also the water has the strong tendency, to follow the walked paths! My guess, they just weren't sure, if they are still on the right trail. And by looking a bit more on locations on Phang Ngan, I think they were on this trail :

https://www.wikiloc.com/hiking-trails/khao-ra-viewpoint-and-waterfall-22589479

Because the other waterfall would be on the other side of the hill, near the east coast. I think , that is a bit difficult to check, google is not  telling always the right location to a name. 

And still, it is not about walking exactly the same steps back, that you came. The track in your phone, if you are on it, on the one you came, is just 5, perhaps 10 meter away, max, from your actual position! ALWAYS, if you follow the direction, the track shows you. The mistake is not building up, sometimes you even get closer or back on the path, that way! And b/c there is a trail, somewhere, there will be something to follow. And if you can't see something, you CROSS the path, in both directions, 90 degrees for 10-20 meters. You will find some way, pointing in the direction your phone is showing you.

And as I wrote, I found out that Garmin tracks from a Garmin of the "0" years or before are often less precise to follow, as my own smartphone tracked one.

But still, if you follow the direction the track is given, even in case you are 10 meters apart, you have the direction.

But since you can only lead a horse to a waterhole, it has to drink alone, just one more thing: 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Faz
unknown flashing image removed

[Guest1]

Forgot something, to the last picture:

https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-gear/gps-distance-accuracy-test-smartphone-apps-vs-dedicated-gps/

[SomtamMcSporran]

  On 3/2/2022 at 5:37 AM, Guest1 said:

Honestly, how can someone on a hike get lost and not find the way back he or she came  before? They had approximately minimum 5 tracking devices with them. You track your way on a nature hike with an app, these days. And by the looks, that are millenials, so they should be used to smartphones , tracking apps and that these apps are storing the opened sat pictures, in case there is no mobil data. Do they minimum have a bill to pay?

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Have you ever been trekking after a mushroom omelette?

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 3:18 PM, SomtamMcSporran said:

Have you ever been trekking after a mushroom omelette?

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Just with an extra pack of tissue in my back pack

[Stonker]

  On 3/2/2022 at 2:55 PM, Guest1 said:

I get it, you are neither a hiker in unknown territory, nor one who is doing orienteering or geocaching.

That is ok, but you still conveniently outsource of your "can't be bothered to argue" (Understandable, without own experience! No offense)  the fact, that you have obviously no actual upper midrange or top level phone, or NEVER used the GPS function in it, with a proper tracking app. Aside for navigating on a road, perhaps, with google maps. And that they don't even had an idea, how to get the search troops there position with this pre installed app. They had 5 phones for selfies, but no one had any idea about GPS? Stay on roads, then!

They didn't go bushwhacking, dude, they got surprised on "in use" trails, perhaps a lot less in use, as normal, but that is hardly "jungle walk". Also the water has the strong tendency, to follow the walked paths! My guess, they just weren't sure, if they are still on the right trail. And by looking a bit more on locations on Phang Ngan, I think they were on this trail :

https://www.wikiloc.com/hiking-trails/khao-ra-viewpoint-and-waterfall-22589479

Because the other waterfall would be on the other side of the hill, near the east coast. I think , that is a bit difficult to check, google is not  telling always the right location to a name. 

And still, it is not about walking exactly the same steps back, that you came. The track in your phone, if you are on it, on the one you came, is just 5, perhaps 10 meter away, max, from your actual position! ALWAYS, if you follow the direction, the track shows you. The mistake is not building up, sometimes you even get closer or back on the path, that way! And b/c there is a trail, somewhere, there will be something to follow. And if you can't see something, you CROSS the path, in both directions, 90 degrees for 10-20 meters. You will find some way, pointing in the direction your phone is showing you.

And as I wrote, I found out that Garmin tracks from a Garmin of the "0" years or before are often less precise to follow, as my own smartphone tracked one.

But still, if you follow the direction the track is given, even in case you are 10 meters apart, you have the direction.

But since you can only lead a horse to a waterhole, it has to drink alone, just one more thing: 

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Actually I'm a registered Mountain Expedition Leader, Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and Fellow of the Explorers' Club, and pretty experienced (albeit long out of date) in the jungle, and if @Faz would like me to I can happily send him documentation to easily verify all of that.

What you're saying can get people killed - not just those who are ignorant enough to follow your advice which is contrary to the GPS providers as very clearly stated in the link I gave, but those who have to rescue them.

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 3:42 PM, Stonker said:

albeit long out of date

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Aside that you admit the "thing" in the quote, you are really comparing hikes in touristic areas and in daylight with mountain expeditions? I get it, you are a man of habits, and "You can’t change the habits of a lifetime", but comparing apples with oranges,  that is you, not me! 

[Stonker]

  On 3/2/2022 at 3:52 PM, Guest1 said:

Aside that you admit the "thing" in the quote, you are really comparing hikes in touristic areas and in daylight with mountain expeditions? I get it, you are a man of habits, and "You can’t change the habits of a lifetime", but comparing apples with oranges,  that is you, not me! 

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I doubt that what's left of the jungle's changed very much recently!

... and no, I'm not "comparing" anything - simply saying that idiots who give dangerously bad advice about something they know nothing about get people killed.

[Guest1]

  On 3/2/2022 at 4:08 PM, Stonker said:

 simply saying that idiots who give dangerously bad advice about something they know nothing about get people killed.

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Oh, isn't that a pot calling the kettle black?

The only one of us two, who is not referring to the described situation in the topic, that is you. But  as they say, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Only you really need to update your knowledge about smartphones. At least since the snapdragon 855, they are/can be DF GPS phones. Which are totally capable of supporting hiking in mass touristic areas, on beaten tourist tracks, with adequate GPS results like Garmin handsets.

https://www.euspa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/qualcomm-launches-snapdragon-dual-frequency-and-5g

But now I understand your nick, Stonker. 

Have a good one.

[Stonker]

  On 3/3/2022 at 1:58 AM, Guest1 said:

Oh, isn't that a pot calling the kettle black?

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No, trekking on known routes as well as off the beaten track is something I'm a qualified expert in, as I said I could verify very easily and am quite prepared to.

  On 3/3/2022 at 1:58 AM, Guest1 said:

The only one of us two, who is not referring to the described situation in the topic, that is you.

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Again, totally untrue - I'm referring specifically  "to the described situation in the topic" which is a group of holiday makers walking a well known route but in limited visibility and getting badly lost, putting not only their lives in danger but the lives of any rescue team, who routinely put themselves in danger unnecessarily and all too often get injured as a result.

  On 3/3/2022 at 1:58 AM, Guest1 said:

Only you really need to update your knowledge about smartphones. At least since the snapdragon 855, they are/can be DF GPS phones. Which are totally capable of supporting hiking in mass touristic areas, on beaten tourist tracks, with adequate GPS results like Garmin handsets.

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Again, absolute nonsense. You not only have no idea what phones the German holidaymakers had, but the area they were in isn't covered by 5G which your link states is required for Snapdragon 855, and your link also clearly states that it is primarily intended for "urban" areas - nor, equally importantly,  have any of the routes in that area (and in many similar areas) been plotted with that level of accuracy making even the most recent GPS no more use there than the oldest.

People like you are dangerous and your ignorance gets people killed - not only innocent holidaymakers who don't realise that in limited visibility straying just one or two metres off a route while heading in the correct general direction will take them off the safe route and possibly over a drop or cliff edge, but the rescue teams who have to go out to locate and rescue them.

Beyond any doubt the most stupid posts I've read here by far, as it's not only ignorant and misinformed but it could very easily result in people being being injured and killed if they give you any credibility at all.

[KaptainRob]

Thread locked - G1 and Stonker may continue swapping notes via PM if they wish, not in this thread.