News Forum - Asia News Today | Asian countries start ramping up pressure on Russia

[Chatogaster]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

So how does the Ukraine "affect us" apart from morally - particularly as similar events don't appear to elsewhere, from the Yemen to central Africa and everywhere in between where they don't look like "us"?

Edit: by 'in between', like the Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim, although Cyprus did get a limited response.

 

Europe has been relative free of full-on wars since WWII, especially if wars involving Russia (e.g. with Georgia and Chechnya) are disregarded. For the last 2 generations, whenever there was a civil war or even an invasion by one fairly unknown/faraway country into another, most western people would expect it to remain localized (assuming they heard about it in the first place) and not worry about it reaching their doorstep.

However, the vast majority in the west are familiar with Russia and are opposed to its political ideology. They now see/recognize Russia as a world power that is willing to use its military might to expand its territory and sphere of influence into an "important" part of the world. An additional (but related) factor is that media coverage is in near real-time so it's impossible to be unaware of the atrocities that are happening (just like in any other war, in some even more so than in this one) and let it pass.

 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, HiuMak said:

They just like their money

Worst - behaved tourists here by far used ( pre- Covid) to be Israelis & French Maghreb types then Russians then Chinese. Some signs Russians have improved.

[oldschooler]

11 minutes ago, Chatogaster said:

Europe has been relative free of full-on wars since WWII, especially if wars involving Russia (e.g. with Georgia and Chechnya) are disregarded. For the last 2 generations, whenever there was a civil war or even an invasion by one fairly unknown/faraway country into another, most western people would expect it to remain localized (assuming they heard about it in the first place) and not worry about it reaching their doorstep.

However, the vast majority in the west are familiar with Russia and are opposed to its political ideology. They now see/recognize Russia as a world power that is willing to use its military might to expand its territory and sphere of influence into an "important" part of the world. An additional (but related) factor is that media coverage is in near real-time so it's impossible to be unaware of the atrocities that are happening (just like in any other war, in some even more so than in this one) and let it pass.

Difference is Africa is Hopeless. 
Ukraine Closer & Not Hopeless.

[Guest1]

1 hour ago, Chatogaster said:

Europe has been relative free of full-on wars since WWII, especially if wars involving Russia (e.g. with Georgia and Chechnya) are disregarded.

You have to take out, also, the Yugoslavia war. 

Which some say, is kind of the blue print for Putin and Ukraine:

The NATO moved in there, Kosovo, without an UN-Mandate. That came later.

And NATO just changed the direction of cruelty, from Milosovic killing Kosovar-Albanians, to Kosovo Albaniens killing/expelling the minority  of Serbia-Kosovars.

 

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Chatogaster said:

Europe has been relative free of full-on wars since WWII, especially if wars involving Russia (e.g. with Georgia and Chechnya) are disregarded. For the last 2 generations, whenever there was a civil war or even an invasion by one fairly unknown/faraway country into another, most western people would expect it to remain localized (assuming they heard about it in the first place) and not worry about it reaching their doorstep.

However, the vast majority in the west are familiar with Russia and are opposed to its political ideology. They now see/recognize Russia as a world power that is willing to use its military might to expand its territory and sphere of influence into an "important" part of the world. An additional (but related) factor is that media coverage is in near real-time so it's impossible to be unaware of the atrocities that are happening (just like in any other war, in some even more so than in this one) and let it pass.

That's rather my point.

It's got nothing to do with whether it's morally right or wrong or whether people are getting hurt, but it's about "political ideology", as you put it.

I'd suggest whether or not they're "like us" would maybe be a simpler way of looking at it rather than just narrow politics, religion or race.

The West, generally, hasn't given a stuff about whether someone's invading another country or not, or if the military somewhere are killing civilians by the bucket load, as long as they're "not like us" - look at the Yemen, Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim for examples of the former, although Cyprus did get a limited response, and at  Sri Lanka, Fiji, India, Egypt, Hong Kong and again across Africa and South America, such as Argentina and Chile, for examples of the latter (some far worse than others).

I'm not suggesting that Ukraine doesn't deserve support or that pressure shouldn't be brought to bear, but why are so many other places that have suffered at least as much not deserving of the same sort of support and pressure?

Sadly, it's not because we in the West are "selfish" and only get involved when we're affected, so it can only be because ... "they're not like us", which in my view is infinitely more unpleasant.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Guest1 said:

The NATO moved in there, Kosovo, without an UN-Mandate. That came later.

Which included at least one clear war crime by NATO, based solely on their own justification for attacking a purely civilian target - the headquarters and studios of Serbian state television and radio (Radio Televisija Srbije - RTS) in central Belgrade. There were estimated to be at least 120 civilians working in the building at the time of the attack and at least 16 civilians were killed and a further 16 were wounded.

https://mondediplo.com/2000/07/03kosovo

Somehow I doubt an attack on BBC Broadcasting House in Central London would have been seen as quite so justifiable.

 

[Chatogaster]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

That's rather my point.

It's got nothing to do with whether it's morally right or wrong or whether people are getting hurt, but it's about "political ideology", as you put it.

I'd suggest whether or not they're "like us" would maybe be a simpler way of looking at it rather than just narrow politics, religion or race.

The West, generally, hasn't given a stuff about whether someone's invading another country or not, or if the military somewhere are killing civilians by the bucket load, as long as they're "not like us" - look at the Yemen, Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim for examples of the former, although Cyprus did get a limited response, and at  Sri Lanka, Fiji, India, Egypt, Hong Kong and again across Africa and South America, such as Argentina and Chile, for examples of the latter (some far worse than others).

I'm not suggesting that Ukraine doesn't deserve support or that pressure shouldn't be brought to bear, but why are so many other places that have suffered at least as much not deserving of the same sort of support and pressure?

Sadly, it's not because we in the West are "selfish" and only get involved when we're affected, so it can only be because ... "they're not like us", which in my view is infinitely more unpleasant.

Yes, don't mistake the act of me replying to your post for a rebuttal. I happen to agree (with what you said both there and here), but I also thought it could be phrased a bit less indirect / more explanatory.

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Chatogaster said:

Yes, don't mistake the act of me replying to your post for a rebuttal. I happen to agree (with what you said both there and here), but I also thought it could be phrased a bit less indirect / more explanatory.

Thanks, I wasn't having a go at you although it may have looked like that (sorry) but this "if you're not with us you're against us" view which is so prevalent here and in the West, as if this is the worst "crime against humanity" and "war crime" by any country in living memory / recent times is something that I find unpleasant, to put it mildly.

That isn't to play down how serious it is or that innocent people and children are being killed in significant numbers, but it's just a reminder that those who are now accusing others of not doing enough are the same people and countries who did nothing themselves, and continue to do nothing, when far worse 'crimes against humanity' were and are being committed elsewhere, but just not against people "like us" as if that's all that matters.

[Soidog]

18 hours ago, Stonker said:

Why haven't you (or anyone else, as it's not just 'you')  been saying the same thing about the Yemen? Syria? a swathe of Africa?

Just wondering ... 

Yemen . Beyond belief what some people will do and say 

[Stonker]

10 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Yemen . Beyond belief what some people will do and say 

So what's happening in the Yemen, with over 100,000 civilians killed directly by military action including over 10,000 children, is acceptable / justifiable / excusable to you is it, without a fraction of the Western reaction over Ukraine?

Yes, what some people do and say, including here, really is beyond belief.

[Soidog]

11 minutes ago, Stonker said:

So what's happening in the Yemen, with over 100,000 civilians killed directly by military action including over 10,000 children, is acceptable / justifiable / excusable to you is it, without a fraction of the Western reaction over Ukraine?

Yes, what some people do and say, including here, really is beyond belief.

I think the topic ramping up pressure on Russia. Can you stay on topic please? If not then I’m afraid you are breaking forum rules you naught naughty boy. 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

I think the topic ramping up pressure on Russia. Can you stay on topic please? If not then I’m afraid you are breaking forum rules you naught naughty boy. 

No, the topic is  "Asian countries start ramping up pressure on Russia", which is the headline, and I'm questioning why Asian countries should be expected to  when they never have before over similar issues, giving a wide selection of examples and avoiding the most contentious, which is 100% on topic. 

You may not like it now that you've been asked to justify your view, but fortunately that's not your decision to make however much you may try to derail a thread yet again when it doesn't go the way you'd like it to.

Now, let's try to get back on topic without any personal jibes.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Faz
changed font size.

[JamesR]

10 hours ago, Stonker said:

So how does the Ukraine "affect us" apart from morally - particularly as similar events don't appear to elsewhere, from the Yemen to central Africa and everywhere in between where they don't look like "us"?

Edit: by 'in between', like the Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim, although Cyprus did get a limited response.

It affects 'us' as in Western Europe as if the Ukraine is taken then Poland etc might be next which means we the West and the Americans would automatically be at war with the Russians.

It won't affect anyone living in Thailand etc for now.

"Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim, although Cyprus did get a limited response.Yes those countries you mention were not important to us and most other countries in the world....."

Yes, that is what I mean, countries only help others if it is in their interest, the countries you mentioned above were not helped by Europe and even other African and Asia countries, we are all self interested that is my point. 

Self interest is not a Western thing, it is world wide. 

[Stonker]

20 minutes ago, JamesR said:

It affects 'us' as in Western Europe as if the Ukraine is taken then Poland etc might be next which means we the West and the Americans would automatically be at war with the Russians.

It won't affect anyone living in Thailand etc for now.

"Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim, although Cyprus did get a limited response.Yes those countries you mention were not important to us and most other countries in the world....."

Yes, that is what I mean, countries only help others if it is in their interest, the countries you mentioned above were not helped by Europe and even other African and Asia countries, we are all self interested that is my point. 

Self interest is not a Western thing, it is world wide. 

Exactly - but when I said "us" I meant "Asian countries" as well as those here, in Thailand, and this completely unjustifiable idea that everyone should be expected to support Europe and the West when there's an invasion or a war, while Europe and the West have done nothing before when it's happened elsewhere.

I think we're actually in heated agreement !

[Vigo]

On 3/1/2022 at 9:34 PM, CamPat said:

The witchhunt has just begun. I have several Russian and Ukrainian Neighbors that all work as Doktors or medical staff here. None of them had any grudges against each other , till now. Now the russian staff cannot send or receive money from their family, employer etc. anymore because of cut off Swift. Parallel to that the Rubel's value is making a nosedive. All not their fault, thei're just ordinary people. But now the western world seems to be too happy to hit all of them real hard which to me looks like another Inquisition. Have we all lost our mind ? Europe is on the trajectory to go to war with Russia with the Elefant in the Room rubbing his hand while seeing his long term powerplay falling in line with the long term goals of dominating the entire globe.

This war is a piece of *Word removed* and deserves the full condemnation but why on earth do we not experience the same uproar when Israel kills Palestinians on a daily base while stealing their land since more than 70 years ? On top of that Israel is a country that harbors illegal nuclear weapons. Hello IAEA ? Where are you ?

This is not about Israel. What we have here is Russia invading another sovereign nation and intentionally targeting civilian population. The Ukraine does not build military bunkers under hospitals and has never  placed munition depots under UN funded schools. the Ukraine did not launch suicide bomb attacks into Russia. Nor has the Ukraine ever fired missile barrages into Russia. Ukrainians did not set fire to wildlife and forest preserves. Russians do not  give warning knocks on  buildings before they attack like Israel does.  Argue the Russian initiated war on its own merits, because this has nothing to do with israel.

You complain about the Russians being unable to access their Russian funds through western financial institutions. Too bad. Putin was elected by a majority of Russians. It is up to Russians to make change from autocracy. Financial restrictions are the only way for injured parties to protest and to fight back against illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine without bloodshed. Russians are free to return to motherland and to sit out the war. They can spend their roubles all they want in mother Russia. Better yet, some of your medical friends can treat Russians because Russia has some of the highest infection rates of TB, HIV, Hep-B, Hep C and other communicable diseases. if your friends are so concerned about fellow innocent Russians, let them work towards changing life expectancy of Russians and reduce impact of  alcoholism, violent crime, and environmental toxicity.

There is no inquisition. No Russians are being arrested and executed in western countries. However, Russians have illegally entered Ukraine and are murdering non combatants at will.

 

[oldschooler]

Yemen a sectarian Civil War with Saudi & Iranian Proxies in support. Barbaric Hopeless Failed Poverty -stricken State far away from West. No Interest. Like Somalia. Nobodies Business but Theirs. Those blood -soaked (always males)  death- worshipping savages value life at Zero. Regrettable but it is what it is. Nothing can or will be done except UN hypocritical hand-wringing.

Ukraine however is a long civilized close-by European free independent nation already illegally partitioned by Russia and now further invaded with no proper cause.Ukraine of critical importance to security of unfree Russia and Free NATO Nations. Hell of a difference to Yemen.

All of this goes away permanently if only Russia were Free….no need for NATO …..but Russia never has been free before because it’s people have always traded Freedom for Security. Unsurprising after huge destructive invasions by Mongols, French, Germans….

Now tyrants have always used the Foreign Enemy Lie as Means to Unify Country under War / Fear Condition. … so preserving Power. This is what Putin & Xi have long done.

Truly believing NATO, in any configuration, poses even a 1% Invasion Risk to a Nuclear Armed Russia (or China) is obviously not remotely credible to an informed rational mind. Can only conclude then that Putin has lost his mind.
 

 

[Faz]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

So what's happening in the Yemen, with over 100,000 civilians killed directly by military action including over 10,000 children, is acceptable / justifiable / excusable to you is it, without a fraction of the Western reaction over Ukraine?

Nobody stated it was Stonker, but that isn't the topic.
If you want to discuss the limited response from Asian countries or the West to the Yemen Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim open a new topic.

The 'start new topic' tab is at the top of the page to the left large orange 'reply to this topic' tab.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Moderator.

 

[oldschooler]

26 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Exactly - but when I said "us" I meant "Asian countries" as well as those here, in Thailand, and this completely unjustifiable idea that everyone should be expected to support Europe and the West when there's an invasion or a war, while Europe and the West have done nothing before when it's happened elsewhere.

I think we're actually in heated agreement !

NATO Nations neither expect nor need any (useless) outside “support” other than from useful non- NATO Military Allies, in and out of Europe ( Sweden / Japan / Aus, etc). 

When NATO nations haven’t helped militarily before it was not in their national interest. The sole criteria. They have nearly always helped with humanitarian aid to these utterly corrupt failed countries, unable to govern themselves at all, where they have no responsibility to render such aid, which is then promptly stolen by the “ leaders” in those unfortunate places. 

 

[JamesR]

7 hours ago, Stonker said:

That's rather my point.

It's got nothing to do with whether it's morally right or wrong or whether people are getting hurt, but it's about "political ideology", as you put it.

I'd suggest whether or not they're "like us" would maybe be a simpler way of looking at it rather than just narrow politics, religion or race.

The West, generally, hasn't given a stuff about whether someone's invading another country or not, or if the military somewhere are killing civilians by the bucket load, as long as they're "not like us" - look at the Yemen, Gambia, Syria, Somalia, Lebanon, Congo, Haiti, Rwanda, Grenada, Uganda, Tanzania, Ethiopia, East Timor, and Sikkim for examples of the former, although Cyprus did get a limited response, and at  Sri Lanka, Fiji, India, Egypt, Hong Kong and again across Africa and South America, such as Argentina and Chile, for examples of the latter (some far worse than others).

I'm not suggesting that Ukraine doesn't deserve support or that pressure shouldn't be brought to bear, but why are so many other places that have suffered at least as much not deserving of the same sort of support and pressure?

Sadly, it's not because we in the West are "selfish" and only get involved when we're affected, so it can only be because ... "they're not like us", which in my view is infinitely more unpleasant.

What you said above applies to every country in the world not just the West as you seem to be continually implying.

 

[JamesR]

7 hours ago, Stonker said:

Which included at least one clear war crime by NATO, based solely on their own justification for attacking a purely civilian target - the headquarters and studios of Serbian state television and radio (Radio Televisija Srbije - RTS) in central Belgrade. There were estimated to be at least 120 civilians working in the building at the time of the attack and at least 16 civilians were killed and a further 16 were wounded.

https://mondediplo.com/2000/07/03kosovo

Somehow I doubt an attack on BBC Broadcasting House in Central London would have been seen as quite so justifiable.

What is deemed to be right or wrong depends on how it affects the entity making that judgment whether that entity is a person, or a country or a group of countries.

The Brits and Americans killed hundreds of thousands in their carpet bombing of civilian cities in WW2, there were no war crimes trials after the war relating to the bombing as it was deemed OK by the victors. 

 

[oldschooler]

43 minutes ago, Vigo said:

This is not about Israel. What we have here is Russia invading another sovereign nation and intentionally targeting civilian population. The Ukraine does not build military bunkers under hospitals and has never  placed munition depots under UN funded schools. the Ukraine did not launch suicide bomb attacks into Russia. Nor has the Ukraine ever fired missile barrages into Russia. Ukrainians did not set fire to wildlife and forest preserves. Russians do not  give warning knocks on  buildings before they attack like Israel does.  Argue the Russian initiated war on its own merits, because this has nothing to do with israel.

You complain about the Russians being unable to access their Russian funds through western financial institutions. Too bad. Putin was elected by a majority of Russians. It is up to Russians to make change from autocracy. Financial restrictions are the only way for injured parties to protest and to fight back against illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine without bloodshed. Russians are free to return to motherland and to sit out the war. They can spend their roubles all they want in mother Russia. Better yet, some of your medical friends can treat Russians because Russia has some of the highest infection rates of TB, HIV, Hep-B, Hep C and other communicable diseases. if your friends are so concerned about fellow innocent Russians, let them work towards changing life expectancy of Russians and reduce impact of  alcoholism, violent crime, and environmental toxicity.

There is no inquisition. No Russians are being arrested and executed in western countries. However, Russians have illegally entered Ukraine and are murdering non combatants at will.

Yes. Excellent Post Indeed.Israel & Ukraine are Free Democratic Nations. Arabs & Russia have never been Free and likely never will. Their Peoples’ Culture & Choice, for their entire history.Israel in particular has strong Rule Of Law applicable to All Citizens. Arabs elected to Israeli Parliament . There are almost NO Jews anywhere in any Arab countries where No Human Rights exist at all ! 
Nor do ANY Human Rights exist in Russia ( or China) without State grant.

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, JamesR said:

What is deemed to be right or wrong depends on how it affects the entity making that judgment whether that entity is a person, or a country or a group of countries.

The Brits and Americans killed hundreds of thousands in their carpet bombing of civilian cities in WW2, there were no war crimes trials after the war relating to the bombing as it was deemed OK by the victors. 

Those cities had numerous facilities supporting the Genocidal Nazi military machine whose purpose was to enslave/ murder the unconquered British & Russians after victory and eradicate all Jews / Others.

Railheads, Roads, Airfield, Factories, Storage, Workers; all deliberately / conveniently mixed within city civilian housing. Precision Bombing Tech. did Not Exist. Those Targets had to be Destroyed. Inevitable Collateral Damage was not by ANY standards a War Crime.

Remember Germany invented Total Terror War with the first city bombings of Guenica, Rotterdam, Warsaw, London, Coventry etc. and lines of escaping refugees. No War Crimes prosecuted against loser Germany for those.

UK / USA  were forced by the nature of the enemy to duplicate  & perfectTotal War ….and to finish It. 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, Stonker said:

Which included at least one clear war crime by NATO, based solely on their own justification for attacking a purely civilian target - the headquarters and studios of Serbian state television and radio (Radio Televisija Srbije - RTS) in central Belgrade. There were estimated to be at least 120 civilians working in the building at the time of the attack and at least 16 civilians were killed and a further 16 were wounded.

https://mondediplo.com/2000/07/03kosovo

Somehow I doubt an attack on BBC Broadcasting House in Central London would have been seen as quite so justifiable.

Attacking the enemy state propaganda broadcasting facility cannot be a war crime as that is clearly not purely or actually a “ civilian “ facility. 

[oldschooler]

29 minutes ago, JamesR said:

What is deemed to be right or wrong depends on how it affects the entity making that judgment whether that entity is a person, or a country or a group of countries.

The Brits and Americans killed hundreds of thousands in their carpet bombing of civilian cities in WW2, there were no war crimes trials after the war relating to the bombing as it was deemed OK by the victors. 

1st para: Pompous Drivel

2nd para: Naive Nonsense (replied in detail).
No City is entirely “ civilian”. Germans bombed Cities first & not prosecuted.

[oldschooler]

1 minute ago, Stonker said:

Thank you, but I've got no interest in discussing that here or anywhere else.

What I would like to do, though, as several others also seem interested in doing, is to question why Asian countries should be expected to ramp up pressure on Russia when they've never been expected to before over similar issues with other countries, giving a wide selection of examples and deliberately  avoiding the most contentious to avoid de-railing the topic, purely as a comparison, nothing more.

To avoid any transgressions as one poster seems to be taking a far narrower view of the topic than the rest of us, and possibly you, could you clarify if that's on topic or not?

Many Free Asian countries that matter on the world stage ARE acting in concert with their NATO Allies, notably Japan, Australia, S. Korea, Taiwan, Sing. 
ASEAN Inconsequential Here as No Power. Other Asian countries are Enemy ( China/ NK) or “Neutral” ( Arabs) or Pro- Russia (India/Pak/ Iran / FSU Stans).