Thailand Retirement Visa - Post Covid

[AussieBob]

Removed

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by AussieBob
spelling

[King Cotton]

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

 . . . - I began to resent being treated like a tourist.

What an excellent (and Guideline 16 breaking!) account of the Thai expat scenario and one that will, I believe, give a good many members food for thought.

Whilst taking on board all those factors that might make Singapore, Malaysia, etc, appear to be better options for retirement immigration and whilst agreeing 100% with your distrust of the junta-style regime's attitude towards expats and frustrations with the 90-day reporting, etc, etc, etc!, I can only say that my happiness, with my wonderful Thai wife in this most idyllically friendly of villages (Isan) has more than outweighed those negatives and I wouldn't change it for the world.

One thing, though, Bob, re your analysis, it might get interesting when other members reflect upon what you've commented upon.

Nice one, Bob . . . even though you are an evil rule-breaker! (KC said smilingly!)

 

[AussieBob]

2 hours ago, King Cotton said:

What an excellent (and Guideline 16 breaking!) account of the Thai expat scenario and one that will, I believe, give a good many members food for thought.

Whilst taking on board all those factors that might make Singapore, Malaysia, etc, appear to be better options for retirement immigration and whilst agreeing 100% with your distrust of the junta-style regime's attitude towards expats and frustrations with the 90-day reporting, etc, etc, etc!, I can only say that my happiness, with my wonderful Thai wife in this most idyllically friendly of villages (Isan) has more than outweighed those negatives and I wouldn't change it for the world.

One thing, though, Bob, re your analysis, it might get interesting when other members reflect upon what you've commented upon.

Nice one, Bob . . . even though you are an evil rule-breaker! (KC said smilingly!)

Thanks KC - hard to limit such a post - and I do appreciate the leniency - and promise the keep all future posts and replies within Guideline 16.

I too would not swap to another country - it is either here or Thailand.  But back in 2010, if it was as bad as it is now for retired Expats in Thailand, then I would not have met my future wife in 2012 because I would not have chosen Thailand to retire to. 

 

[King Cotton]

4 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

then I would not have met my future wife in 2012 because I would not have chosen Thailand to retire to. 

A real life-directing choice! Strange and interesting, isn't it, how time can be so monumental in a life-course.

[AussieBob]

The Junta is proposing that all Expats on the Retirement Visa and all other long term Visas (12 month Visas) must have mandatory health insurance for 3 million baht for Covid.  I have ascertained that it would cost me about $5000 AUD each year to get coverage for the mandatory hospital and out-patient coverage and Covid insurance.  Over 20 years (60 to 80) that is going to cost about $200,000 AUD because it goes up each year as you get older - that is beyond the budget for most moderat Expats. That has already been introduced for Retired Expats (except for the mandatory Covid part), and they probably now klnow that is why so many retired Expats left Thailand and why not many apply now - it is not just Covid.

BUT even if you could afford it - the reality is that there is absolutely no guarantee that the Thai insurance company will pay. There is no 'consumer rights' in Thailand as we know it in the West, and as an Excpat you have no legal rights. An Expat taking an insurance company to Court in Thailand will cost a fortune and you will not win - no chance. In fact - they will probably sue you for 'defamation' and you will be arrested and charged - and likely to have to leave the country.  

AND once you turn 70 or 75 most insurance companies will not give you coverage - so you will have to leave Thailand if you cannot find coverage. Those that will proivide coverage will charge exhorbitant fees.  I know of many 'married' Expats in Thailand who are over 70 and some over 80, and if the annual renewal/extension process demands they have health insurance coverage, then most of them will probably leave - same as the retired Expats did 2-3 years ago.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot - and again - and again ..............

(sorry about length KC)

[KaptainRob]

Having lived here 11 years now I can't say I have ever been treated as a 'tourist' or felt unwelcome.  Quite the opposite.  Our Hangdong Amphur office official bent over backwards to assist with my Yellow Book and even invited me to wait for the Pink Card in his office ... though I think he wanted to practice his English on me.

The new Chiang Mai Immi Office is efficient and visa renewals a breeze compared to even 3 years ago.  For 90 day reports I either do online or in a 30 second drive-thru when near the airport.  TM 30 can be done online easy as, but only necessary upon your return from o/s.

A non-O visa requirements are still the same as years ago with the added requirement to retain funds longer in the bank a/c.  Hardly a problem though a shame it had to be introduced to curtail the scams which circumvented the deposit requirement.

Living in a lush green mooban close to the city and with 100's of farang neighbours I sometimes forget I'm in Thailand.

[Nat]

Aussie Bob you are wrong stating - "The Junta is proposing that all Expats on the Retirement Visa and all other long term Visas (12 month Visas) must have mandatory health insurance for 3 million baht for Covid."

The issue pertained only to Non-OA retirement visas and older expats who are unable to buy Thai health insurance due to their age. Instead they were considering them to be able to use non-Thai policies or keep 3 million baht in a bank account.

https://twitter.com/RichardBarrow/status/1404986885022248962

The Non-O retirement Visa/Extension will remain as is without any insurance requirement.

It would be front page news (followed by a massive uproar/backlash) if they did propose mandatory insurance for all Non Immigrant extensions.

And also there are no 12 month visas in Thailand. I think you meant 12 month visa extensions.

 

[AussieBob]

6 minutes ago, KaptainRob said:

Having lived here 11 years now I can't say I have ever been treated as a 'tourist' or felt unwelcome.  Quite the opposite.  Our Hangdong Amphur office official bent over backwards to assist with my Yellow Book and even invited me to wait for the Pink Card in his office ... though I think he wanted to practice his English on me.

The new Chiang Mai Immi Office is efficient and visa renewals a breeze compared to even 3 years ago.  For 90 day reports I either do online or in a 30 second drive-thru when near the airport.  TM 30 can be done online easy as, but only necessary upon your return from o/s.

A non-O visa requirements are still the same as years ago with the added requirement to retain funds longer in the bank a/c.  Hardly a problem though a shame it had to be introduced to curtail the scams which circumvented the deposit requirement.

Living in a lush green mooban close to the city and with 100's of farang neighbours I sometimes forget I'm in Thailand.

I hear you Kaptain, but it was in 2018 that we left Chiang Mai and the annual extension process was not easy - mainly due to the long waits and the staff being very busy.  I hear that now it is much easier - because of a lot less Expats?  I also heard they changed location and many staff too - maybe that has made it easier.  Maybe same for online system? It rarely worked when I was there, And it never took only 30 seconds for a 90 day report - I cannot see that is possible.  Gotta agree about the location though - and there is a lovely little golf course in Hang Dong and we played there quite often. 

[King Cotton]

10 minutes ago, Nat said:

I think you meant 12 month visa extensions.

What an excellent debut post, Nat. Thanks for that and I'm sure AussieBob will stand corrected, there!

Hello, Nat and welcome to T-T!

Please feel free to tell us a bit about yourself in 'Introductions'. It's good to pick-up on those sometimes differing regional or geographical perspectives.

And check-out the Guidelines, too, when you get a free minute. They're there to help us all enjoy our time here.

Happy posting

KC

[AussieBob]

11 minutes ago, Nat said:

Aussie Bob you are wrong stating - "The Junta is proposing that all Expats on the Retirement Visa and all other long term Visas (12 month Visas) must have mandatory health insurance for 3 million baht for Covid."

The issue pertained only to Non-OA retirement visas and older expats who are unable to buy Thai health insurance due to their age. Instead they were considering them to be able to use non-Thai policies or keep 3 million baht in a bank account.

https://twitter.com/RichardBarrow/status/1404986885022248962

The Non-O retirement Visa/Extension will remain as is without any insurance requirement.

It would be front page news (followed by a massive uproar/backlash) if they did propose mandatory insurance for all Non Immigrant extensions.

And also there are no 12 month visas in Thailand. I think you meant 12 month visa extensions.

Thanks Nat - seems to be a media beat up based on article in local newspaper.   As one person said on Richard's post:  Hopefully, this is one of those wild ideas they put out there, social media outcry follows and the idea quietly vanishes.

Yes I meant 12 month extension of permission to stay  - but most people call it another Visa (renewal).

The Non-O retirement Visa/Extension does have medical insurance requirements - but it looks like the Covid insurance may or may not be mandatory for those as well. Bangkok Post maybe got it wrong.  Time will tell.

It is not a 'good look' when prospective retired Expats are considering Thailand as their overseas destination to retire to hear such negative stories about living in Thailand.

[KaptainRob]

8 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

I hear you Kaptain, but it was in 2018 that we left Chiang Mai and the annual extension process was not easy - mainly due to the long waits and the staff being very busy.  I hear that now it is much easier - because of a lot less Expats?  I also heard they changed location and many staff too - maybe that has made it easier.  Maybe same for online system? It rarely worked when I was there, And it never took only 30 seconds for a 90 day report - I cannot see that is possible.  Gotta agree about the location though - and there is a lovely little golf course in Hang Dong and we played there quite often. 

When the online 90 day system is down, a drive-thru will take anything from 30 to 90 seconds.  Last visit there was a car behind me, 30 seconds and no chit chat with the officer.  Previous visit was 90 seconds as he printed new TM30 slip to replace my 'screen print'.

Last 2 renewals, no re-entry stamp req'd, took about an hour.  I usually go just after lunch.  They are far more efficient now, and yes, fewer farangs in-country has probably helped speed things up,  Mind you, sitting in airconditioned comfort with wifi isn't a big inconvenience, not like 10 years ago when queues formed before dawn to get a ticket.

[Nat]

Sorry Bob but again you are mistaken when saying "The Non-O retirement Visa/Extension does have medical insurance requirements".

Only the Non-OA extension has insurance requirements.

Anyone that either is extending a Non-O retirement in Thailand, or coming into Thailand on a Visa-Exempt/tourist visa then converting to a 90 day Non-O which can then be extended yearly DOES NOT require any of the 400k in/40k outpatient health insurance.

The $100k covid insurance applies to all foreigners to enter Thailand but I hear this requirement will be dropped once they do away with the whole COE entry process.

Some embassies have been requiring the 400k in/40k outpatient health insurance for Non-O extension holders with re-entry permits outside of Thailand wanting to return. This also will be eliminated once the COE process goes away.

[dimitri]

10 hours ago, KaptainRob said:

Having lived here 11 years now

For 90 day reports I either do online or in a 30 second drive-thru when near the airport.

 

 

The 90 day reporting is for me 1 of the reasons why I decided not to move permanently and to keep my options open. It was after I heard the motivation behind the 90 day reporting; You have to report yourself, because you are a threat to national security.  

Some people always say that it is so easy to do this reporting, that it doesn't take much time etc. But I find it too insulting. I cannot rely on a country that considers me, someone with a Thai girlfriend and a baby a threat to national security.

 

[javada88]

I agree with much of the context of AssieBob s original post. He is probably wrong about part of the rules concerning visa and insurance for foreigners living in Thailand, as was pointed out by Nat. But in general his post shows the experiences and feelings from many foreigners living here. As far as I am concerned, kudo s for his post. 

[Faz]

Just to correct certain information.

Covid Insurance cover for $100,000 is required for the COE for all entries to Thailand and must cover the period of entry granted on entry.  For a TV = 60 days, Non Imm O = 90 days, Non Imm O-A = 1 year. Available here: Home - Covid 19 Insurance (tgia.org).

The 400K inpatient, 40K outpatient Health Insurance is mandatory for Non Imm O-A Visa applications at Thai Embassies, also for annual extensions of stay based on retirement from a Non Imm O-A entry. Certain Embassies may request the Health Insurance for Non Imm O Visa applications based on retirement (not Thai family/marriage), but it is not required for subsequent applications of extensions of stay based on retirement.                                                                                                  The 400/40K Health Insurance isn't required for either Non Imm O Visa applications at Thai Embassies, or subsequent extensions of stay if the applications are based on Thai family/marriage.

@AussieBob The Thai Embassy Canberra offers the 90 day single entry Non O Visa on the basis of marriage to a Thai (not retirement).  No  400/40K Health Insurance requirement, just the $100,000 Covid Insurance required for 90 days to cover the 90 day entry granted from the Non O Visa.

You can apply to extend your permission of stay for 12 months based on marriage (no Insurance requirements) but must meet Immigrations financial requirements, those being either 400K THB deposited in a Thai bank for 2 months prior to the date of application, or proof of 40K THB monthly overseas transfers to a Thai bank.

The Thai bank account must be in your sole name.

[AussieBob]

Thanks Nat and Faz - all good. I called it 'Non-O Retirement' because many people dont know that a retirement visa is called a non-OA Visa.

When compulsory insurance 400/40 was introduced the Govt media leaked the prospect of also requiring non-O Married visa holders to have the 'approved' insurance coverage. The negative feedback they got from Expat groups and Thais made them know that would be very unpopular and result in more Expats leaving Thailand.  The reality is that the majority of married Expats have some form of medical insurance or arrangement (money in bank) - but the very expensive 400/40 insurance would break their budget, like it did for many retired Expats. 

I got a quote for my age and the minimum price was 65K Baht and that looked OK.  But the price (then) for when I was 5 years older became 95K Baht, and so on it went such that at 80 it was almost 200K to cover 400/40 - ridiculous. I added it all up and over 15 years it was 2.14million Baht - at the rates applicable then - but they always go up 5-10% at least each year so I estiamte it will cost 3 million+ over 15 years.  And here is the 'kicker' - although it totals 400K, the maximum for any single 'item' was 100K - the 400K was an aggregate total across multiple items over the whole year.  Get a serious illness or car accident, and you will not be anywhere near covered. And any issues with them paying up and you are on your own - no consumer protection or rights for 'tourists' on long term visas - not much for Thais either. 

The expense problem is that they demanded 'approved' policies which included 40K outpatient - that is the most expensive component and greatly increases costs as one gets older.  Mandating 400K inpatient (hospitals) is reasonable and there are affordable policies available - but mandating outpatient coverage as well, made the policies way too expensive.  If they become mandatory for married Visa - we will not be returning to live in Thailand - my wife and I do not want to give the boss/es of insurance companies another Mercedes.  Medical coverage here in Aust is free - if either she or I gets sick/illness we will come back - all we need is hospital coverage of 1 million baht for a sudden serious illness or car accident type event. That sort of policy is way cheaper ongoing over 15 years than is that 400K/40K scam. And I could tuck 100K a year away and have 1 million after 10 years. The whole mandatory scam thing is just wrong. 

 

 

[Nat]

Yes Bob , the 40k outpatient requirement is what makes this whole insurance policy completely unfair and over priced.

They probably stipulated that as a way to profit off of this whole insurance requirement. It is so unnecessary as any expat can easily afford to pay up to 40k in cash for any outpatient procedure in Thailand.

Although I fully agree with needing to have good inpatient coverage which makes this all the more useless as how does anybody figure that 400k baht will be enough for any major surgery or emergency. Most decent inpatient policies cover at least 1 million US dollars.

[Faz]

2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Thanks Nat and Faz - all good. I called it 'Non-O Retirement' because many people dont know that a retirement visa is called a non-OA Visa.

Hi Bob, It is a Non Imm O-A Visa as displayed on the Visa vignette but quite often referred to as a 'Retirement Visa' which is non existent  Most Thai Embassy websites refer to it as the ''long stay'' Visa, because it grants 12 months permission of stay on entry, same as the Non Imm O-X and Elite Visa types.

Non Imm O Visas and indeed 1 year extensions of stay are also often referred to as 'Retirement Visas' which confuses the issue. All Non Imm Visas and 1 year extensions are applied for on the basis of either retirement or Thai family/marriage, but they are not Retirement or Marriage Visa. Extensions of stay applied for at Immigration offices are 'permits', not Visas.        You cannot extend a Visa, your extending  the permission of stay granted on entry from the original Visa entry.

 

[Faz]

25 minutes ago, Nat said:

They probably stipulated that as a way to profit off of this whole insurance requirement. It is so unnecessary as any expat can easily afford to pay up to 40k in cash for any outpatient procedure in Thailand.

Hi Nat,

The mandatory 400/40K  Health Insurance policies for Non Imm O-A Visas and extensions of stay were introduced, rightly or wrongly, as a part answer to the problem of unpaid hospital bills. In my opinion, the main culprits of this crime are Tourist that didn't get Travel Insurance. Another reason was that with the Non O-A Visa there is no requirement to keep any funds or even have a Thai bank account. The Health Insurance requirement has been mandatory for the Non Imm O-X Visa for a long time (another ''long stay'' Visa type).

There is a very cheap Insurance provider, LMG, on the tgia website, but with a 200K deductible it's worthless as an actual Insurance policy but meets Immigrations requirements. It's ideal for those having existing Health Insurance policies that Immigration won't accept because it's not from one of their approved Thai provider's. 

It's a scandalous overpriced set up. The odd brown envelope reaching certain officials daresay.

[dimitri]

5 hours ago, Faz said:

LMG, on the tgia website, but with a 200K deductible it's worthless as an actual Insurance policy but meets Immigrations requirements.

 

The next step will be a health insurance covering 400k Baht with a 400K deductible...

 

If you are right, and the unpaid hospital bills are from tourists, they will soon find out that the insurance requirements do not help the hospitals...

 

I never really understood the story about unpaid hospital bills. My daughter was born in a hospital here in BKK. At the day we had to leave we went to the maternity ward to pick her up. With the plan to pay the bill at the cash register at the exit. But we did not get the baby baby before we paid!  Someone came with a mobile pay terminal, and after paying we got the baby...

[AussieBob]

10 hours ago, Faz said:

Hi Bob, It is a Non Imm O-A Visa as displayed on the Visa vignette but quite often referred to as a 'Retirement Visa' which is non existent  Most Thai Embassy websites refer to it as the ''long stay'' Visa, because it grants 12 months permission of stay on entry, same as the Non Imm O-X and Elite Visa types.

Non Imm O Visas and indeed 1 year extensions of stay are also often referred to as 'Retirement Visas' which confuses the issue. All Non Imm Visas and 1 year extensions are applied for on the basis of either retirement or Thai family/marriage, but they are not Retirement or Marriage Visa. Extensions of stay applied for at Immigration offices are 'permits', not Visas.        You cannot extend a Visa, your extending  the permission of stay granted on entry from the original Visa entry.

Absolutely correct Faz - I just wish that everyone also knew that too. Many times in the past I have tried to tell Expats and others what you have said, failing most times.  And try telling some of them that they cannot get a 'new Visa' but an annual extension of their permission to stay, and all they have is 'argumentative ears'.

Clearly a lot of that confusion is caused by the Thai Government and by Thais who work in the industry (like Agents).  Recently the Thai Embassy in Australia rewrote their webs pages providing accurate information  https://canberra.thaiembassy.org/non-immigrant/    But then they spoilt it all by providing a link to documents called:  "Retirement Visa application form"

 

 

[Faz]

On 6/24/2021 at 6:04 AM, AussieBob said:

Clearly a lot of that confusion is caused by the Thai Government and by Thais who work in the industry (like Agents).  Recently the Thai Embassy in Australia rewrote their webs pages providing accurate information  https://canberra.thaiembassy.org/non-immigrant/    But then they spoilt it all by providing a link to documents called:  "Retirement Visa application form"

Hi Bob,
I think the Australian Embassy website refer to the Non Imm O-A Visa as the Retirement (long stay) Visa.
It can indeed only be applied for on the basis of retirement, but it is not a 'Retirement Visa' as many call it.
Many other Embassies refer to it as just the (long stay) Visa.

China, France, UK and now the USA have to apply for a Visa using the E-Visa online application system, which the Ministry of Foreign Affairs intends to slowly introduce to other Countries.
The preverbal pain in the backside is that you can only apply online, whilst the advantage is that the Non O single entry 90 day Visa becomes available for the purpose of retirement as well as for Thai family/wife.

[KhunG]

I honestly don't get it.  I came in on a Non 'O' based on family, and I then started doing retirement extensions.  Every 90 days I spend a couple minutes online doing my report.  Once a year I go to the bank for the letter (100฿) and the next day spend less than 30 minutes at immigration getting my extension (1,900฿).  The TM30 is now only necessary if you change your primary residence. Only those who came in on O-A visas have the insurance requirement.  I self insure with a significant emergency fund so extensions based on bank balance are easy.

So all my effort and expense for retirement here is approximately an hour of my time and 2,000฿ per year. 

Yes, there are hiccups, like earlier this year the online 90 day report system was down for a couple months, so those who came due then had to go to immigration.  I also understand some offices are more difficult to deal with than others, the one here is quite efficient and helpful.

[KaptainRob]

9 minutes ago, KhunG said:

I honestly don't get it.  I came in on a Non 'O' based on family, and I then started doing retirement extensions.  Every 90 days I spend a couple minutes online doing my report.  Once a year I go to the bank for the letter (100฿) and the next day spend less than 30 minutes at immigration getting my extension (1,900฿).  The TM30 is now only necessary if you change your primary residence. Only those who came in on O-A visas have the insurance requirement.  I self insure with a significant emergency fund so extensions based on bank balance are easy.

So all my effort and expense for retirement here is approximately an hour of my time and 2,000฿ per year. 

Yes, there are hiccups, like earlier this year the online 90 day report system was down for a couple months, so those who came due then had to go to immigration.  I also understand some offices are more difficult to deal with than others, the one here is quite efficient and helpful.

My experience also, fairly easy and straight forward process.  It wasn't always that way in Chiang Mai as many will recall but improved drastically with the new office building and streamlined procedures + a drive thu 90 day service which is as quick as the online process if one happens to be passing.

[Soidog]

On 6/16/2021 at 6:59 AM, Nat said:

Aussie Bob you are wrong stating - "The Junta is proposing that all Expats on the Retirement Visa and all other long term Visas (12 month Visas) must have mandatory health insurance for 3 million baht for Covid."

The issue pertained only to Non-OA retirement visas and older expats who are unable to buy Thai health insurance due to their age. Instead they were considering them to be able to use non-Thai policies or keep 3 million baht in a bank account.

https://twitter.com/RichardBarrow/status/1404986885022248962

The Non-O retirement Visa/Extension will remain as is without any insurance requirement.

It would be front page news (followed by a massive uproar/backlash) if they did propose mandatory insurance for all Non Immigrant extensions.

And also there are no 12 month visas in Thailand. I think you meant 12 month visa extensions.

Hi Nat,  I agree with your comments regarding Non-O and Non-OA. However, as a 53 year old who is not married but wishes to gain a retirement visa, it’s seems I can no longer get a Non-O, only a Non-OA? I can easily show I have an income of greater than 65,000 baht a month or hold the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank. However, at the moment, it seems the Non-OA with its associated insurance requirements are my only option? Unless you can advise otherwise?

This is a far cry from my 90 day multiple entry Non-O visa I held for many years. It allowed me to come and go as I pleased and got 90 days on each return to Thailand. Those were the days…