News Forum - Russia attacks Ukraine from three fronts, explosions in major cities

[KRLMRX]

50 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So why have troops crossed the border from Belarus? 

Thats nowhere near Donbass. 

the official position is the suppression of the border military infrastructure.

[Freeduhdumb]

Europe had its chance to fully implement the Minsk II agreements... they failed to follow through. Now Russia is forced to act.

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

the official position is the suppression of the border military infrastructure.

Well Mr Karl Marx that counts as an invasion and nothing to do with "peace keeping" operations in Donbass is it.

So Putin his lied repeatedly. 

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Europe had its chance to fully implement the Minsk II agreements... they failed to follow through. Now Russia is forced to act.

In what way has Europe failed to implement the agreements?

[KRLMRX]

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Well Mr Karl Marx that counts as an invasion and nothing to do with "peace keeping" operations in Donbass is it.

So Putin his lied repeatedly. 

First, comrade.

secondly - of course, formally, the invasion.

and, of course, he lied. like any politician of today.

[Freeduhdumb]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

In what way has Europe failed to implement the agreements?

You are clearly are inept to the situation... I shouldn't need to explain it to you. I won't take the time. Listen in here...
 

 

[AussieBob]

4 hours ago, Dedinbed said:

NATO came into existence because of the Soviet's continued occupation of countries they tore through in the final mths of WW2 including the eastern side of Germany at the behest of Stalin .. had they packed up and headed back to the Motherland after Germany was defeated then there may never have been the need for NATO to exist .. but they didn't and since then the formerly Soviet Union and laterally Russian Federation have exhibited a belligerence that requires an organisation like NATO as the counterbalance .. it cannot be criticised least of all by Putin that free democratic countries within Europe have a right to join the organisation if they meet the criteria that provides them with protection from the very thing that is happening now and has been one of the main reasons Europe has ( had ) enjoyed relative peace for 70 odd yrs .. 

Yes and No.  What happened when USSR started to destabilised in 1989 (Berlin Wall etc.) was that there was agreements put in place in 1991 for the creation of Ukraine and other countries - one of the very clear conditions that Russia agreed was that Ukraine never joined NATO, and remained as a neutral 'buffer zone' between NATO and Russia. It was in the Ukraine Constitution.  NATO supported western Ukraine took over power in a coup over the elected Ukraine President in 2014 - which started a civil war with Eastern Ukraine. The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep.  That does not mean I agree with Russia invading all of Ukraine - I am pointing out that it was not all the fault of big bad Putin and that NATO (with US support) has been a totally innocent player is these events.  If you look, you will see speeches made by Putin and others in 2016 that warned of what would happen if Ukraine continued its war on Eastern Ukraine and stayed on its path to becoming part of NATO. 

[AussieBob]

4 hours ago, Alavan said:

What signed agreements?

Russians occupied Eastern Europe after the end of WWII, and gouvenments not agreeing were liquidated.

Those peace loving Russians never do anything wrong. US an Europeans do, but what the Komaradski do in Syria is not different.

They are so trustworthy that even neutral countries like Sweden and Finland hold exercises together with NATO. Why do you think Finland bought F35’s, certainly not because they trust their neighbours

Same reply for the uninformed.

What happened when USSR started to destabilised in 1989 (Berlin Wall etc.) was that there was Agreements put in place in 1991 for the creation of Ukraine and other countries - one of the very clear conditions that Russia agreed was that Ukraine never joined NATO, and remained as a neutral 'buffer zone' between NATO and Russia. It was in the Ukraine Constitution.  NATO supported western Ukraine took over power in a coup over the elected Ukraine President in 2014 - which started a civil war with Eastern Ukraine. The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep.  That does not mean I agree with Russia invading all of Ukraine - I am pointing out that it was not all the fault of big bad Putin and that NATO (with US support) has been a totally innocent player is these events.  If you look, you will see speeches made by Putin and others in 2016 that warned of what would happen if Ukraine continued its war on Eastern Ukraine and stayed on its path to becoming part of NATO. 

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Freeduhdumb said:

You clearly are inept to the situation... I shouldn't need to explain it to you. I won't take the time.

So no evidence again then.

You certainly are consistent. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Thats the opinion of one clown. How is that evidence?

[AussieBob]

3 hours ago, Tim_Melb said:

I think the veiled threat is worse than that, I think the veiled threat that any nation that stands with the Ukraine will suffer "massive consequences", is a threat of nuclear consequences...

Yes it is definitely is - and that is totally unacceptable of course.  I hope Putin only goes as far as the actual borders of Donetsk and Luhansk (pre the civil war) and the stops.  The Russian forces have taken out Ukraine's strategic and defence capabilities in eastern Ukraine, but I hope that only serves to stop any counter air strikes against the invading Russian forces. Even if you count Crimea which Russia already occupies - they have currently invaded less than 10% of Ukraine - it is a huge country.  Maybe Russia will stop at the Donetsk regional border.   But what I would really like to know is what did the Ukrainian President actually threaten Putin with after the Russian forces first entered Ukraine under the stated aim of 'saving' the people in Donetsk and Luhansk - I doubt we will ever know. 

[Pinetree]

5 hours ago, Noble_Design said:

If NATO is going to just stick to watching the situation as it unfurls then their name really suits their acronym - No Action Talk Only

There has, to date. not been an attack on a NATO country, therefore they cannot and should not  take any action, but just prepare. 

[Pinetree]

18 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

he NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU.

A meaningless gesture as they have no chance of being admitted to either.  Its a red herring.  

[AussieBob]

3 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

A meaningless gesture as they have no chance of being admitted to either.  Its a red herring.  

 

On 8 June 2017, Ukraine's Verkhovna Rada passed a law making integration with NATO a foreign policy priority, and Poroshenko announced the next month that he would seek the opening of negotiations on a Membership Action Plan with NATO, which recognized Ukraine as an aspirant country by March 2018. On 20 September 2018, the Ukrainian parliament approved amendments to the constitution that would make the accession of the country to NATO and the EU a central goal and the main foreign policy objective. On 8 October 2020, during a meeting with Prime Minister Boris Johnson in London, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy stated that Ukraine needs a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP), as NATO membership will contribute to Ukraine's security and defense.

This provides a reasonable overview of what NATO has been 'encouraging' shall we say.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

And this provides some more specific details about Ukraine joining NATO.      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

 

 

[Rookiescot]

14 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Yes it is definitely is - and that is totally unacceptable of course.  I hope Putin only goes as far as the actual borders of Donetsk and Luhansk (pre the civil war) and the stops.  The Russian forces have taken out Ukraine's strategic and defence capabilities in eastern Ukraine, but I hope that only serves to stop any counter air strikes against the invading Russian forces. Even if you count Crimea which Russia already occupies - they have currently invaded less than 10% of Ukraine - it is a huge country.  Maybe Russia will stop at the Donetsk regional border.   But what I would really like to know is what did the Ukrainian President actually threaten Putin with after the Russian forces first entered Ukraine under the stated aim of 'saving' the people in Donetsk and Luhansk - I doubt we will ever know. 

So if a group controlled a small region of somewhere like NSW you would be happy to see the whole of NSW handed over to them by a foreign nation? 

[huhuarf]

6 hours ago, Noble_Design said:

If NATO is going to just stick to watching the situation as it unfurls then their name really suits their acronym - No Action Talk Only

Well Ukraine isnt part of NATO. 

[huhuarf]

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

If you look, you will see speeches made by Putin and others in 2016 that warned of what would happen if Ukraine continued its war on Eastern Ukraine and stayed on its path to becoming part of NATO. 

This is a pretty lame take on what is going on.  Let's just be clear.  NATO kicks in when a member state is attacked.  So Ukraine has some concerns about a Russia invasion, of course the whole Crimea thing and all.  You're suggesting they Ukraine has nothing to worry about and in some way forced the hand of Russia to invade?

If you own a house and decide to put a security system in, I suppose it makes sense for a criminal to be justified in breaking in and robbing you first.

[KRLMRX]

57 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

But what I would really like to know is what did the Ukrainian President actually threaten Putin with after the Russian forces first entered Ukraine under the stated aim of 'saving' the people in Donetsk and Luhansk - I doubt we will ever know. 

in recent months, the leadership of Ukraine has been openly saying that they are not going to comply with the Minsk agreements, perhaps they are going to acquire nuclear weapons again (according to the speaker of the MIL of Russia, this turned the situation upside down).

At the same time, NATO regularly supplied weapons to Ukraine and once a week declared that it would accept the country into this military bloc. This gave Putin a formal and justified reason for a military operation.

One gets the feeling that NATO specially presented this cake to Putin. The only question is whether Putin will receive this cake in the face or eat it in exchange for certain services.

[huhuarf]

5 minutes ago, whitesnake said:

And, of course, this puts the kye-wash on Russian Tourists being welcomed into Thailand!

The average person here won't give two shits about Ukraine. If Russian tourists don't come it'll be due to not having funds

[Noble_Design]

6 minutes ago, whitesnake said:

And, of course, this puts the kye-wash on Russian Tourists being welcomed into Thailand!

One more thing ... watch a litre of petrol soon hit in excess of 50 Baht!! (maybe higher!!) Brent crude the highest it's been today since 2014: $105 per barrel and set to rise higher!!

Thais soon won't be able to fill up their trucks at a cost of 70 litres x 50 THB...3,500 Baht to fill your tank!!!??OMFG!  Something Thais have never experienced, along with huge rises in food and other consumer goods!! The "Thai Good-life" is vanishing... for GOOD! Wake up everyone... trouble ahead. 

There will be some impact from the rise of oil price but Thai people will find a way to survive this like they did when oil prices went very high a few years back. If oil price increases and sustain at that level more people will install LPG & NGV on their vehicles.

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

Same reply for the uninformed.

What happened when USSR started to destabilised in 1989 (Berlin Wall etc.) was that there was Agreements put in place in 1991 for the creation of Ukraine and other countries - one of the very clear conditions that Russia agreed was that Ukraine never joined NATO, and remained as a neutral 'buffer zone' between NATO and Russia. It was in the Ukraine Constitution.  NATO supported western Ukraine took over power in a coup over the elected Ukraine President in 2014 - which started a civil war with Eastern Ukraine. The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep.  That does not mean I agree with Russia invading all of Ukraine - I am pointing out that it was not all the fault of big bad Putin and that NATO (with US support) has been a totally innocent player is these events.  If you look, you will see speeches made by Putin and others in 2016 that warned of what would happen if Ukraine continued its war on Eastern Ukraine and stayed on its path to becoming part of NATO. 

I only see a country which isn’t part of NATO, and not on the verge of becoming a member, being attacked by a totalitarian neighbour.

Since 2014 there has been democratic elections, and the Russian minded people could also vote. Seems they didn’t win. Also the President of 2014 lost and they now have president who was an actor before.

if you see Putin and his acolytes saying they are attacking neo- fascist, WTF?

Putin never could accept the implosion of the Sovjet Union,

[dj230]

Just read Russia is going after Chernobyl nuclear power plant, wonder if this changes things, im not a military person or history person

[1l1]

2 hours ago, harry1 said:

its uncomprehending that russia and china still sits as permanent  members of UN security council,both have been the main culprit to world peace,and both have intimidated local region instability 

Russia and China are cofounders of UN.

2 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

Do ordinary Russians support this military action?

Babyboomers and trolls do.

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep.  That does not mean I agree with Russia invading all of Ukraine

That doesn't exist in the deal, the agreement doesn't include any language precluding either Ukraine or any of the prior Soviet client states from joining NATO. There was probably a verbal promise, but that's pretty flimsy to hang your hat on when it's going to cost hundreds or more likely thousands of deaths. 

That aside, Ukraine didn't qualify for joining NATO now or in the future no matter how much they want it. As long as Russia was sitting in Crimea, and they were never leaving, it wasn't possible. The idea that Russia attacked now to keep it from happening isn't grounded in the reality of the issue. Seems more like a convenient excuse than anything else. 

As for keeping the Ukraine from joining the EU,  they and NATO are two completely different organizations with two different objectives and obligations. The only reason to keep the Ukraine from joining the EU is to keep the Russian population from seeing what could be their lives could be??? 

I still don't see the true motive for the invasion or the end game. If it's to create a buffer zone between Russia and NATO, the two are already adjoining at the Baltic States. Never mind occupying Ukraine actually brings the two closer together at that part of the map. NATO was a dying entity, all the invasion did is revitalize it. 

[huhuarf]

17 minutes ago, 1l1 said:

Russia and China are cofounders of UN.

Thats not how Taiwan is spelled.