News Forum - Phuket police feel public backlash over arrest of foreign tourists in “scooter-gate”

[HiuMak]

5 hours ago, Stonker said:

I can't imagine driving round HCMC on an e-scooter and lasting more than two minutes.

Go with the flow, you will get used to it.

[Fundok]

17 hours ago, Stonker said:

Which would have meant that anyone else was free to drive them just as dangerously and stupidly, with no deterrence at all.

Would that have "sufficed" in your country, if tourists there had been doing the same thing?

Did the tourists ask?

In my country the useage of scooters is not prohibited, to begin with. But if they were prohibited, no one would possibly consider to make it a business to rent them out without telling the renters that they may not use them in public space.

"Did the tourists ask?" Why should they? If you rent out a bike at a rental station you can rightfully assume that this legal, especially if those scooters are legal where they come from.

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Fundok said:

Acting reckless - irrespective of the means of transport - deserves to be fined. Driving a scooter w/o knowing that this is illegal should not earn the drivers a fine but a warning. The ones to be fined are those renting out the scooters. That's how I would have handled it.

So you'd have charged the tourists with "acting reckless", which is a criminal offence so that would have meant they couldn't be fined by the police but they'd have to be tried in court and not allowed to leave the country until after their trial, could have faced up to ten years in jail, faced deportation and being blacklisted if found guilty, and even if only fined would have meant they had a criminal record which could also have meant they'd be unable to travel to many other countries?

I see.

You don't think that might have been seen as a bit of an over reaction?

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Fundok said:

In my country the useage of scooters is not prohibited, to begin with. But if they were prohibited, no one would possibly consider to make it a business to rent them out without telling the renters that they may not use them in public space.

You're still missing the point that they weren't stopped because the scooters were illegal on the road but because they were riding them stupidly.

To save me constantly repeating it, do you not understand that or do you just not accept it despite it being reported very clearly?

... and I may be being over generous and you may be an exception, but I think most people realise that when they go abroad the laws may be different to their own country and so they don't assume they can drive on the right hand side of the road because they do so at home and that they can drive like idiots because the rental company didn't tell them not to.

 

[Stonker]

5 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Not HCMC but I rented and drove a MB all week in Hanoi

Sitting at a red light with 300 other MB's was sort of a "how the hell did I end up here" awesome moment 

And I found VN drivers to be extremely polite

Also, to tie in another thread

We actually were on a mountains bike tour and drove back on the highway into the city and the drivers were again, very polite 

Agreed, but I've only been to HCMC.

I could never work out how they did it, but as long as they just kept going people could walk across the road through packs of scooters and motorbikes without either stopping or getting hit.

The traffic was far worse than anywhere in Thailand, even Bangkok, and the driving seemed just as bad and the horns never stopped, but I never saw an accident. I don't know how they did it, but Thailand could learn from them if they could work out how.

[Fundok]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

You're still missing the point that they weren't stopped because the scooters were illegal on the road but because they were riding them stupidly.

To save me constantly repeating it, do you not understand that or do you just not accept it despite it being reported very clearly?

... and I may be being over generous and you may be an exception, but I think most people realise that when they go abroad the laws may be different to their own country and so they don't assume they can drive on the right hand side of the road because they do so at home and that they can drive like idiots because the rental company didn't tell them not to.

 

[Fundok]

I did understand that they were stopped because of reckless behaviour - fine with me. If they were (just) fined for that - ok for me. All I am not happy about that subsequently they were also fined for using unlicensed vehicles. So no need for you to constantly repeat yourself.

[Fundok]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

So you'd have charged the tourists with "acting reckless", which is a criminal offence so that would have meant they couldn't be fined by the police but they'd have to be tried in court and not allowed to leave the country until after their trial, could have faced up to ten years in jail, faced deportation and being blacklisted if found guilty, and even if only fined would have meant they had a criminal record which could also have meant they'd be unable to travel to many other countries?

I see.

You don't think that might have been seen as a bit of an over reaction?

Just get over it. When I relate to a "reckless" behaviour I didn't do so in criminal terms but as a generic description of the behaviour of those tourists which made the police stop them. "Reckless" of course can be of varying severity, some behaviour may of course lead to criminal prosecution, in less severe instances just to administrative fines. So please don't interpret anything in my words that I obviously did not intend to say.

[Marc26]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

Agreed, but I've only been to HCMC.

I could never work out how they did it, but as long as they just kept going people could walk across the road through packs of scooters and motorbikes without either stopping or getting hit.

The traffic was far worse than anywhere in Thailand, even Bangkok, and the driving seemed just as bad and the horns never stopped, but I never saw an accident. I don't know how they did it, but Thailand could learn from them if they could work out how.

It's all subtle 

 

Like a jigsaw all fitting

 

I will say, one of my coolest travel moments 

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, Fundok said:

All I am not happy about that subsequently they were also fined for using unlicensed vehicles.

No they weren't.

They were fined once.

4 hours ago, Fundok said:

So no need for you to constantly repeat yourself.

It doesn't seem to make any difference - you still don't get it.

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, Fundok said:

"Reckless" of course can be of varying severity, some behaviour may of course lead to criminal prosecution, in less severe instances just to administrative fines.

Jesus H Christ, you genuinely don't understand that Thailand isn't Switzerland.

No, that behaviour CANNOT lead to an 'administrative fine' by the police here unless they charge them with a different offence with a fixed penalty, such as driving on the road illegally, which is exactly what they did.

It may "of course" be possible in Switzerland, but it's not here.

The police don't have the authority to deal with a charge of reckless and dangerous behaviour, of ANY severity, which HAS to go to a criminal court, unless they go for a different charge as they did and they frequently do as it's pragmatic and suits everyone.

Everyone, that is, except those who think Thailand does things the same way as their country and can't understand it when they don't.

[Guest1]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

which HAS to go to a criminal court, unless they go for a different charge as they did and they frequently do as it's pragmatic and suits everyone.

In special it suits the police themselves! Only fines THEY charge, are giving them a (legal) cut, they can share in the end of the month. If it is going to court, they are not longer in the loop! Main reason, methinks, why mediating is such a big thing, here!

[Stonker]

22 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

In special it suits the police themselves! Only fines THEY charge, are giving them a (legal) cut, they can share in the end of the month. If it is going to court, they are not longer in the loop! Main reason, methinks, why mediating is such a big thing, here!

Realistically I'd suggest the "(legal)" share out is small beer somewhere like Phuket compared to the rest of their 'income', but generally in cases like this I think it suits everyone and the many problems there are lie elsewhere.

[Fundok]

4 hours ago, Stonker said:

Jesus H Christ, you genuinely don't understand that Thailand isn't Switzerland.

No, that behaviour CANNOT lead to an 'administrative fine' by the police here unless they charge them with a different offence with a fixed penalty, such as driving on the road illegally, which is exactly what they did.

It may "of course" be possible in Switzerland, but it's not here.

The police don't have the authority to deal with a charge of reckless and dangerous behaviour, of ANY severity, which HAS to go to a criminal court, unless they go for a different charge as they did and they frequently do as it's pragmatic and suits everyone.

Everyone, that is, except those who think Thailand does things the same way as their country and can't understand it when they don't.

Goodness me, let me assure you I have sufficient legal expertise to understand that the legal systems in TH and CH are not identical. From the article and from what you wrote it transpires to me (and I'll phrase it very cautiously to not agitate you):

1. Initially those scooter drivers were stopped by the police because they substantially breached the traffic code, and

2. They received a fine for driving a vehicle w/o the proper licence.

Both 1. and 2. can happen anywhere in the world, just that the consequences/fines will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

All I said is that I think that those scooter drivers should - in my view - not have reveived a fine. Just calm down, if you have a different view, fine with me.

[DiJoDavO]

On 2/22/2022 at 12:29 PM, Stonker said:

The problem was that some idiots were abusing the police turning a blind eye and riding the scooters dangerously.

What option did the police have:

i) do nothing, and allow them to continue to drive them dangerously and the rental company to rent them out illegally

ii) give all involved a minimal fine and a warning, which they gave to everyone.

So in your opinion, if certain people do dangerous stuff with something which is not dangerous at all, the whole activity should be banned instead of finding some way to make people understand how to use them? 

The whole point they make is about registration and safety. Both are bs. 

Foreigners ride motorcycles like an idiot too. They drive cars like idiots too. If we talk about safety, should these be banned too? 

I daily encounter people riding a bicycle in the middle of the road and won't get out of the way. They ride bikes like crazy. None of them has to be registered but are part of the traffic. 

They are just losing money for themselves and they try to find out ways to make it stop. 

Maybe those taxi drivers complained again? If they complained about 1 man picking someone up from the airport, I guess a complaint about those scooters from them won't be a crazy thought. 

Like I said, what's next? Being fined for walking to your hotel, just because you didn't take the taxi? That's almost exactly this. 

Maybe the next thing is that you have to call a taxi driver to come over to your house, to carry you to your own toilet and pay 600 THB for it, because nothing may be done without involving those taxi drivers. 

[Guest1]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Realistically I'd suggest the "(legal)" share out is small beer somewhere like Phuket compared to the rest of their 'income', but generally in cases like this I think it suits everyone and the many problems there are lie elsewhere.

Up to 10k Bath each month, legally, for doing your job "selectively" , on top of a official salary between 15 and about 40k, that is not really "small beer"

Why you think, the check points are more often now? Every fine counts!

https://thethaiger.com/dg/2004-11-06.pdf

Page 2, "Traffic Law crackdown a boon for police", second last paragraph

That still should be valid, methinks! 

[Stonker]

16 minutes ago, DiJoDavO said:

So in your opinion, if certain people do dangerous stuff with something which is not dangerous at all, the whole activity should be banned instead of finding some way to make people understand how to use them?

Sorry, but I can't even guess how you came to that conclusion based on anything I've said here or in any other threads on this.

[Stonker]

9 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

Up to 10k Bath each month, legally, for doing your job "selectively" , on top of a official salary between 15 and about 40k, that is not really "small beer"

Why you think, the check points are more often now? Every fine counts!

https://thethaiger.com/dg/2004-11-06.pdf

Page 2, "Traffic Law crackdown a boon for police", second last paragraph

That still should be valid, methinks! 

I'd suggest that "somewhere like Phuket compared to the rest of their 'income'", it is.

I don't know any police in Phuket, but I knew a good few in Pattaya and "up to 10k each month" wouldn't even cover what they paid to get transferred there.

One I knew, not based in Pattaya, told me he'd paid one and a half million just to get promoted while remaining in the same desk job in order to get a bigger slice of the pie as it got passed around, and that was over twenty years ago.