News Forum - Minimum daily wage in Thailand looks set to increase to 492 baht

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Cabra said:

The end

Let's hope so.

A simple acknowledgement that you'd made a mistake when you said "Wrong again"  would have sufficed.

[Stardust]

18 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

As I said, it is obvious that you know nothing about running a business.  Costs, whether that is labor, insurance, transportation, insurance, all impact a business.  That is true in Thailand, the UK, Germany, or anyplace else.  The only thing that is different is the use of the Euro, USD, or Baht.  The economy may be larger in the USA and have more opportunities for workers but that begs to improve the opportunities not make it more expensive to do business here.  Common Sense.  You really out to try it sometime. 

Here is what is already happening with businesses moving out of Thailand compared to cheaper Vietnam and your answer is to raise the minimum wage giving even more companies reason to move out. That is like throwing an anchor to a drowning man to help him. I am sure that the next wave of unemployed Thai's will thank you for raising their minimum wage.  Of course the fact that they will be unemployed doesn't matter because if they had a job it would be at a higher rate.  Liberalism is a Mental Disorder. 

<quoted source is not approved for Thaiger>

Omg I told you already that the family has a company. And you what kind of company in Thailand do you have that you think you know it better and better than the bank researchers?

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Benroon said:

OK give us some examples - I've given you an example of why you're talking nonsense so now your turn. Here's a quote from an American thinktank 

The evidence, however, is clear: Raising the minimum wage does not have the harmful effects that critics claim. A significant body of academic research finds that raising the minimum wage does not result in job losses, even during periods when the unemployment rate is high.

However just out of interest I googled it for a general opinion, you are going to have to go down a few pages to find support for your view, as every organisation and opinion up to them confirms you're simply wrong. Races to the bottom, which are your preferred choice for economies, do not work.

The UK govt also carried out an extensive review, after all they are going to have to foot the bill, and their evidence led them to believe it is 'overwhelmingly beneficial' to pay a decent working wage. The costs you or someone else claimed of a 42% increase in costs is offset by reduced turnover, thus less recruitment costs, thus less poor morale costs etc etc. A happy workforce is a productive workforce, you don't need google to tell you that.

I'll save @longwood50 the time.

If you want quotes from American think tanks about America, look no further than Cabra's earlier link: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/economism-and-the-minimum-wage/513155/

If you want to talk about THAILAND though, and the effect of raising the minimum wage HERE, then maybe look at  what actually happened as detailed in the links I gave rather than quote  economic theory garnered from Google.

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, longwood50 said:

No, I am afraid he would need crayons and finger paints for you to understand. 

@longwood50, we've had our differences, God knows, but you're just wasting your time expecting or hoping for any sort of rational or coherent response from that quarter.

It's not even worth trying .

[Stardust]

35 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

As I said, it is obvious that you know nothing about running a business.  Costs, whether that is labor, insurance, transportation, insurance, all impact a business.  That is true in Thailand, the UK, Germany, or anyplace else.  The only thing that is different is the use of the Euro, USD, or Baht.  The economy may be larger in the USA and have more opportunities for workers but that begs to improve the opportunities not make it more expensive to do business here.  Common Sense.  You really out to try it sometime. 

Here is what is already happening with businesses moving out of Thailand compared to cheaper Vietnam and your answer is to raise the minimum wage giving even more companies reason to move out. That is like throwing an anchor to a drowning man to help him. I am sure that the next wave of unemployed Thai's will thank you for raising their minimum wage.  Of course the fact that they will be unemployed doesn't matter because if they had a job it would be at a higher rate.  Liberalism is a Mental Disorder. 

<quoted source is not approved for Thaiger>

The main problem the companies here have is the education system and to get skilled labours or why do you think there are so many foreigners in companies here?! For sure I am talking about productions not fish industry etc. Did you ever been inside a company in Thailand? Did you ever worked in a company in Thailand? I mean also multi national companies in Thailand. The problem is not wages it is to get the skilled people. Why do you see so many germans at BMW etc etc ? Do you not think it is a bit expensive for a company them with already high wages in Germany and they have to pay even more that they work for them in Thailand as the wages would be in Germany. I eould be interested which enterprises you are talking that cannot afford 300 baht, because these then have for sure no qualification in any economy or to manage any company/business. Are you talking about this forced labour business from the fish industry? Maybe you should talk with companies here but for sure proper ones or maybe work in one to understand what are the real obstacles and problems especially economicly!

[Stardust]

55 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

As I said, it is obvious that you know nothing about running a business.  Costs, whether that is labor, insurance, transportation, insurance, all impact a business.  That is true in Thailand, the UK, Germany, or anyplace else.  The only thing that is different is the use of the Euro, USD, or Baht.  The economy may be larger in the USA and have more opportunities for workers but that begs to improve the opportunities not make it more expensive to do business here.  Common Sense.  You really out to try it sometime. 

Here is what is already happening with businesses moving out of Thailand compared to cheaper Vietnam and your answer is to raise the minimum wage giving even more companies reason to move out. That is like throwing an anchor to a drowning man to help him. I am sure that the next wave of unemployed Thai's will thank you for raising their minimum wage.  Of course the fact that they will be unemployed doesn't matter because if they had a job it would be at a higher rate.  Liberalism is a Mental Disorder. 

<quoted source is not approved for Thaiger>

Another interesting question for me is : did you ever worked in a company in Thailand? Especially in the Bangkok, Chonburi, Rayong area (eastern corridor) ?

[Benroon]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

I'll save @longwood50 the time.

If you want quotes from American think tanks about America, look no further than Cabra's earlier link: 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/economism-and-the-minimum-wage/513155/

If you want to talk about THAILAND though, and the effect of raising the minimum wage HERE, then maybe look at  what actually happened as detailed in the links I gave rather than quote  economic theory garnered from Google.

I didn't go garnering anything - I was merely interested in where the weight of support is - and its very quickly evident opponents of the minimum wage are on very thin ice. (The UK government are probably independent of google btw). 

I also did you the courtesy of reading your previous post and caught this :-

"Overall, the evidence suggests that the minimum wage has had a positive effect on those at the lower end of the wage distribution"

I have not been selective as afterwards it said it didn't filter all the way down but that was a compliance issue. 

Its not only a financial issue, its a moral issue to make sure those on the breadline can actually have a half decent standard of living. I've read or seen nothing so far on here to suggest otherwise.

[Benroon]

3 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Milton Friedman

Nobel Prize for Economics

Professor of Economics at University of Chicago 
Senior Fellow Economics - Hoover Institute Stanford University




This applies to those that think that "they are doing good" by raising the minimum wage.  It is well intentioned but misguided.  History is replete with examples of how raising the minimum wage in other countries hurt those trying to gain experience by climbing into the job market and work their way up.  It leads to outsourcing to other countries and automation to eliminate entry level jobs. 

 

So given he's got it hopelessly wrong when it comes too the 5th largest economy in the world, (can't speak for others) how much credibility should we attach to this ?

How misguided is he when you consider the minimum wage is very alive and kicking in the UK, just had I believe the largest hike, with more promised, and are closer to full employment in their history ?

Healthy level minimum wage coupled with near full employment - its a conundrum right ?

[Stonker]

17 hours ago, Benroon said:

I didn't go garnering anything - I was merely interested in where the weight of support is - and its very quickly evident opponents of the minimum wage are on very thin ice.

Well, that's your view which unfortunately you haven't given any evidence to support.

Equally unfortunately, none of the top economists over the last century support that view and all are strongly against it, as shown very clearly in the link that names and quotes them: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/economism-and-the-minimum-wage/513155/

Maybe they're all wrong and you and the "opponents" are correct despite the empirical evidence.

18 hours ago, Benroon said:

"Overall, the evidence suggests that the minimum wage has had a positive effect on those at the lower end of the wage distribution"

I have not been selective as afterwards it said it didn't filter all the way down but that was a compliance issue. 

No, you have been selective as you've completely ignored the paragraph afterwards which I also quoted and completely ignored the reality in Thailand that half the workforce are not salaried workers so not eligible for any minimum wage.

What the World Bank describe as "non-compliance" is simply the reality in Thailand, as they go on to explain, namely that in Thailand half the workforce aren't salaried but are employed informally  so any minimum wage is meaningless to them.

18 hours ago, Benroon said:

Its not only a financial issue, its a moral issue to make sure those on the breadline can actually have a half decent standard of living.

But it DOESN'T "make sure those on the breadline can actually have a half decent standard of living" because those on the breadline aren't salaried so aren't eligible for any minumum wage.

18 hours ago, Benroon said:

I've read or seen nothing so far on here to suggest otherwise.

Then read the two links I gave which are specific to Thailand and explain in detail exactly why it doesn't work in Thailand or in a country where so many just over half) aren't salaried:

https://www.pier.or.th/en/abridged/2016/11/

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1111154/FULLTEXT01.pdf

As I quoted before:

 

From the Swedish study, which is very detailed:

"In , 2013, minimum wage was increased from 239 Baht to 300 Baht per day, an increase by 26 percent. The main objective of this essay is to assess the extent towhich the 300 Baht minimum wage is a good
instrument to reduce poverty"

"In the short run, we observe simultaneously an increase in a number of informal workers and a decrease in a number formal employees after the reform which shows us an evidence of labour flow between these two sectors.
The short run decrease in a number of formal workers probably originated from a higher production cost.
Employes reduced the number of employees or substitute them with other production factors in order to
reduct their cost of production ( sush as hiring immigrants and purchasing machines in order to maintain
their firm’s profitability). As a result, formal workers who get lay off have to work in informal sector."

Their conclusions (my bold):

"For short run, an increase in minimum wage is higher for formal workers who did not get lay off
by observing from an increase in minimum wage bite. However, an increase in minimum wage
causes a negative effect for workers who became unemployed or had been inevitably allocating to
work in informal sector because they would receive lower average wage.
While the number of informal employees decreased , an increase in a number of formal employees
took place due to a better cost adjustment and allocation from firms’ production factors in long
run. Also, these formal workers who benefited from the policy were not poor people because their
income was above the poverty line. Therefore, we suggest that 300 Baht minimum wage policy
is not an effective tool to reduce poverty"

From the Thai / World bank study (my bold):

"Overall, the evidence suggests that the minimum wage has had a positive effect on those at the lower end of the wage distribution. However, it has not translated into higher wages for those at the very bottom of the distribution as non-compliance may have kept these very low-paid workers at below-minimum.

"As suggested by our findings, gains arise for wage workers, who can now obtain a higher reward for their labor after a prolonged period of stagnation in real wages, and also for firms, which can find a bigger pool of candidates available for work. However, losses may apply to firms and wage workers too. Some firms, especially the micro enterprises, could be forced out of the formal sector or out of the market altogether as they cannot compete for workers with larger monopsonistic firms. Furthermore, these large firms could temporarily see their profits reduced to adjust to the higher minimum. Workers could be penalized too if the bargaining power of some, namely the very low-paid, is reduced due to increases in non-compliance."

What you're arguing about is economic theory in countries where the vast majority of the population are salaried and employed formally.

THAT IS NOT THE CASE IN THAILAND.

 

 

[Stonker]

18 hours ago, Benroon said:

How misguided is he when you consider the minimum wage is very alive and kicking in the UK, just had I believe the largest hike, with more promised, and are closer to full employment in their history ?

Healthy level minimum wage coupled with near full employment - its a conundrum right ?

As above, and as @Faz has already said, this thread is NOT about the minimum daily wage elsewhere or about economic theory - it's about the minimum daily wage IN THAILAND and the effect of a 46% increase overnight.

If you want to discuss economic theory or the minimum daily wage in the UK as anything but a comparative to here then please have some respect for those here who want to stay on topic and discuss it as it concerns THAILAND.

The UK has a very different economy to Thailand where work in the formal and informal sectors is concerned.  In Thailand, over 50% of Thais are employed solely in the informal sector which isn't subject to any minimum wage regulation; in the UK it's well under 10%, with the majority being illegal immigrants or those working illegally - even those working in the 'gig' economy in the UK such as delivery and Uber / Grab drivers are increasingly employed in the formal sector, while that doesn't apply in Thailand.

https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---asia/---ro-bangkok/documents/briefingnote/wcms_747944.pdf

https://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/default/files/jrf/migrated/files/9781861348937.pdf

You're drawing a parallel where the circumstances are totally different, and the workforce is employed on a completely different basis.

[longwood50]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:13 PM, Benroon said:

Healthy level minimum wage coupled with near full employment - its a conundrum right ?

I dont know where you get your figures from but youth unemployment in the UK is high

 

The youth unemployment rate was 11.1%, compared to an unemployment rate of 4.1% for the whole population. The inactivity rate for young people is 39.7%, down from 39.9% in the previous quarter. 77% of the young people who are economically inactive are in full-time education

In 2019, the estimated youth unemployment rate in the United States was at 8.3 percent.

Those are exactly the people who use to work at minimum wage jobs as an entry to the workforce and gain job experience preparing them for a higher wage. 

One way or another, whether it is taxes, insurance, rent, utilities etc, the higher it is, the more business will strive to eliminate it. 

I am for better wages for the low income people.  However I believe the mechanism to lift them is better training for better jobs, not making business pay more for the same unskilled labor.  That just traps them forever at the minimum wage. 

 

 

 

 

[longwood50]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:22 PM, Stardust said:

Another interesting question for me is : did you ever worked in a company in Thailand? Especially in the Bangkok, Chonburi, Rayong area (eastern corridor) ?

And Stardust your lack of a cohesive thought process is intriguing.  What does me working for a company in Bangkok, Chonburi, or Rayong have to do with anything. 

I fail to grasp why you think that Thailand employers are any different than employers around the world.  When something becomes more expensive they try to rid themselves of it. 

I am totally for increasing the wages for those at the bottom.  But I suggest the way to do that is to make them more valuable.  Give them training to be a skilled laborer.  You seem to think that the answer is merely to give the worker more money for the same unskilled labor.  If that worked and had no negative repercussions as previously stated why stop at only 492 baht per day.  Make it 10,000 baht per day.  After all according to you that increase in wage will not result in fewer workers or higher prices.  I bet you believe in Santa Claus and that somewhere in the clouds is a goose that lays golden eggs.  

[longwood50]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:12 PM, Stardust said:

The main problem the companies here have is the education system

I am shocked, you finally said something that made sense.  And what was my suggestion.  TRAIN THE WORKERS TO OBTAIN BETTER SKILLS. 

Apple goes to China not for the wages but for the skill level.  Embark on a government program.  Target something whether it is automobile production, steel production, computer chip production, furniture production, etc.  Then train the lower income groups to meet the jobs for those industries and actively recruit businesses to locate here based on financial incentives to come to Thailand coupled with a workforce able to meet their needs. 

 

[longwood50]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:47 PM, Stardust said:

Omg I told you already that the family has a company.

I said have YOU ever owned a company, hired an employee, had to pay wages or compete.  The fact that my brother is a doctor hardly makes me an expert in the medical field.  

I have owned 4 businesses and I can tell you with no doubt when costs go up business tries to shed that additional cost and passes on whatever it must.  When the cost of its product or service is too high for the consumer, they stop buying. 

I suspect that the small employers will just skirt the minimum wage laws and pay day laborers in cash or use foreign workers. 

It will be the large employers like the hospitals, Makro, Tesco, Homepro that can not escape the governments oversight on minimum wage.  Those are exactly the ones who will automate.  Additionally, the cost of their products will go up.  That will hurt everyone.  Not just the wealthy but those working poor who also buy products at those store.  You want to help them.  Great.  Have the government do a program like the 50/50 where when the low income person buys something the government pays half and they pay half but don't saddle the burden of higher pay on the employer and think it solves anything. 

I have repeatedly said, look at China.  They trained their citizens.  They were at one time just as uneducated as the Thai's.  Now they can build computers, cars, televisions, airplanes, machine tools, cell phones etc.  They now command higher compensation because they provide higher value added to the employer.  

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

I am shocked, you finally said something that made sense.  And what was my suggestion.  TRAIN THE WORKERS TO OBTAIN BETTER SKILLS. 

Apple goes to China not for the wages but for the skill level.  Embark on a government program.  Target something whether it is automobile production, steel production, computer chip production, furniture production, etc.  Then train the lower income groups to meet the jobs for those industries and actively recruit businesses to locate here based on financial incentives to come to Thailand coupled with a workforce able to meet their needs. 

 

Replace “better” with “ demanded” and “ wages” with “ costs”

[oldschooler]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:47 PM, Stardust said:

Omg I told you already that the family has a company. And you what kind of company in Thailand do you have that you think you know it better and better than the bank researchers?

Would not consult a bank about running a business just as I would not ask a garage about insurance! 

[Stardust]

13 hours ago, longwood50 said:

I said have YOU ever owned a company, hired an employee, had to pay wages or compete.  The fact that my brother is a doctor hardly makes me an expert in the medical field.  

I have owned 4 businesses and I can tell you with no doubt when costs go up business tries to shed that additional cost and passes on whatever it must.  When the cost of its product or service is too high for the consumer, they stop buying. 

I suspect that the small employers will just skirt the minimum wage laws and pay day laborers in cash or use foreign workers. 

It will be the large employers like the hospitals, Makro, Tesco, Homepro that can not escape the governments oversight on minimum wage.  Those are exactly the ones who will automate.  Additionally, the cost of their products will go up.  That will hurt everyone.  Not just the wealthy but those working poor who also buy products at those store.  You want to help them.  Great.  Have the government do a program like the 50/50 where when the low income person buys something the government pays half and they pay half but don't saddle the burden of higher pay on the employer and think it solves anything. 

I have repeatedly said, look at China.  They trained their citizens.  They were at one time just as uneducated as the Thai's.  Now they can build computers, cars, televisions, airplanes, machine tools, cell phones etc.  They now command higher compensation because they provide higher value added to the employer.  

Omg I asked you ever had a company in Thailand or south east asia or worked in any?! And you not even not know the infrastructure in China, tech infratstructer supply, supply and development to build up productions in China, because this was not made by China. It shows me you never worked in a multinational company or in any production company in China or Asia and not in a german or european company who is involved in that. Maybe study a bit economy, study exports german to China for example and in what they are involved. Sorry I will not follow anything if you not even understand the infrastructure of the economy in Thailand, south east asia or China. 

[Stardust]

15 hours ago, longwood50 said:

I am shocked, you finally said something that made sense.  And what was my suggestion.  TRAIN THE WORKERS TO OBTAIN BETTER SKILLS. 

Apple goes to China not for the wages but for the skill level.  Embark on a government program.  Target something whether it is automobile production, steel production, computer chip production, furniture production, etc.  Then train the lower income groups to meet the jobs for those industries and actively recruit businesses to locate here based on financial incentives to come to Thailand coupled with a workforce able to meet their needs. 

 

I agree with you that the education system is a huge problem in Thailand and known for a while but this the economic sector mention already many times. But I not share your economy views because it not fits on the infrastructure or situation of the Thai economy.

[Stonker]

Seriously amazing - the first thread I can recall where such diverse opinions as mine, @oldschooler, @longwood50, and @LoongFred are all in virtually complete agreement.

 

On 2/15/2022 at 7:47 PM, Stardust said:

And you what kind of company in Thailand do you have that you think you know it better and better than the bank researchers?

 

Actually the World Bank researcher came to the same conclusion as @longwood50 , but never mind .

https://www.pier.or.th/en/abridged/2016/11/

"...we find positive effects of the minimum wage on the hourly wage distribution, with effects spanning up to the 60^th percentile, but with no effect on the lowest percentile.

... the application of a higher minimum entails some gains and losses. ... Workers could be penalized too if the bargaining power of some, namely the very low-paid, is reduced due to increases in non-compliance."

 

 

[Stardust]

5 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Seriously amazing - the first thread I can recall where such diverse opinions as mine, @oldschooler, @longwood50, and @LoongFred are all in virtually complete agreement.

Actually the World Bank researcher came to the same conclusion as @longwood50 , but never mind .

https://www.pier.or.th/en/abridged/2016/11/

"...we find positive effects of the minimum wage on the hourly wage distribution, with effects spanning up to the 60^th percentile, but with no effect on the lowest percentile.

... the application of a higher minimum entails some gains and losses. ... Workers could be penalized too if the bargaining power of some, namely the very low-paid, is reduced due to increases in non-compliance."

That you have zero knowledge about economy everybody could see about your comments about pulling out supply chains from China, you even claim no company has it done. Now you show you not even can read and understand the world bank researches and cnclusion. Took parts out and make your personal conclusion for your personal opinion what has nothing to do or the datas from all the researches of the world bank. You not even able to understand the short version they made for the children.

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/video/2020/10/22/poverty-and-inequality-in-thailand

By the way I will not give a lot of sombody living in a remote area watching the rice fields never worked in a company Thailand or had one in Thailand about his qualification or experiences to tell me something about the facts or realities in Thailand. You just read a few chapters of something but have no experiences in it not thinking to the end but presenting it as facts. Fact is knowing is not the same like believing or guessing!

 

[Stonker]

6 minutes ago, Stardust said:

That you have zero knowledge about economy everybody could see about your comments about pulling out supply chains from China, you even claim no company has it done. Now you show you not even can read and understand the world bank researches and cnclusion. Took parts out and make your personal conclusion for your personal opinion what has nothing to do or the datas from all the researches of the world bank. You not even able to understand the short version they made for the children.

https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/video/2020/10/22/poverty-and-inequality-in-thailand

By the way I will not give a lot of sombody living in a remote area watching the rice fields never worked in a company Thailand or had one in Thailand about his qualification or experiences to tell me something about the facts or realities in Thailand. You just read a few chapters of something but have no experiences in it not thinking to the end but presenting it as facts. Fact is knowing is not the same like believing or guessing!

Priceless - says it all !

[Stardust]

Just now, Stonker said:

Priceless - says it all !

Without substance like everytime and thats why not waste my time. I am more aware of it when I send you the report about the japanese pull out program and about the pull outs into Vietnam and read your comments it was clear even then you didn't understand anything about this subject. Wondering you still want to quote me even I am full aware about your knowledge and foundation.

[LoongFred]

Inflation is already here. Wait tell it hits the price of beers and lady friends before you decide if the MW is good or bad. Just as McDonald in the US installs self order machines and more stores use self check out, entry jobs will be lost. This make using entry jobs as a linchpin to a better job. In Thailand the informal economy will increase with greater competition. Great if you want street food, but everything will cost more. As mentioned elsewhere higher living standards will only come about by more job skills training and or education. It be based on added value of labor.

[oldschooler]

On 2/15/2022 at 9:13 PM, Benroon said:

So given he's got it hopelessly wrong when it comes too the 5th largest economy in the world, (can't speak for others) how much credibility should we attach to this ?

How misguided is he when you consider the minimum wage is very alive and kicking in the UK, just had I believe the largest hike, with more promised, and are closer to full employment in their history ?

Healthy level minimum wage coupled with near full employment - its a conundrum right ?

Friedman never been wrong on Economics. Present Labour Shortages & Customer Demand will support higher minimum wage and “near full” ( not all sectors) employment. 

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, Stardust said:

Wondering you still want to quote me even I am full aware about your knowledge and foundation.

Wonder no more - I genuinely find your posts the funniest here.