News Forum - Minimum daily wage in Thailand looks set to increase to 492 baht

[longwood50]

On 2/13/2022 at 12:22 PM, Stardust said:

I forgot to mention there is no succesfull economy in the worlds top listing without a minimum wage including the USA and also that a succesfull economy is messured by per capita gdp/ income! 

Sorry Stardust,

You completely miss the point.  If you want to "help" people you do not try and impose that burden on employers.  You give assistance to those in need.  The idea that somehow the poor worker's problems can be solved by dumping the problem on the employer is as misguided as the notion that you can place taxes on businesses and "it costs nothing"  

All the experts say raising minimum wage COST JOBS So you hurt the very people you say you want to help.  Common sense, you ought to look that up.  If gasoline prices go up, people take steps to avoid them such as electric cars.  If you tax cigarettes to make the price go up, you do so to discourage their use.  If you tax gas guzzling cars, making them more expensive, you sell fewer of them.  IF YOU MAKE WORKERS MORE EXPENSIVE YOU HIRE LESS OF THEM AND FIND ALTERNATIVES TO USING THEM. 

 

This liberal naiveite that somehow you can just pass an increase in costs to employers and they will not respond is more than just ludicrous, it is insane.  It is fine that you want to help those earning low incomes. Do so by direct subsidies to their food, clothing, shelter, medical expenses and utility costs.  More importantly start job training programs to "lift" them out of minimum wage jobs.  THAT HELPS THE ECONOMY. 

When the automobile assembly company considers coming into Thailand or expanding and it finds it can hire workers cheaper elsewhere, guess what, they go elsewhere.  So much for helping.  When the furniture manufacturer here in Thailand can't compete with lower prices for the same furniture made in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, or the Philippines and goes out of business, so much for your "helping the working poor"  When the family of 6 goes to buy food and finds it is much more expensive because the workers in the farms now make more money and those costs are pushed along, well I am sure they will thank you for taking money from their pockets to pay to others.  When the rice, and rubber products two of the main exports from Thailand have to raise their prices and no longer find they can sell because of cheaper products elsewhere, I am sure those workers in the rice fields and rubber plantations will thank you for their 4.92 baht per hour, but multiplied by 0 hours since the exports have shrank. 

Perhaps using your thinking, you should just plant the magic beans from Jack & the beanstalk climb and grab the goose that lays the golden eggs to give everyone.  That has as much credence as the thought that minimum wage doesn't have any unintended bad consequences.  

 https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2021-02/56975-Minimum-Wage.pdf

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/raising-minimum-wage-to-15-would-cost-1point4-million-jobs-cbo-says.html


<excess images removed>

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Faz
Excess images removed.

[longwood50]

6 hours ago, Benroon said:

Giving a helping hand via a minimum wage

If you want a "helping hand" give it to them.  Provide for food, clothing, rent, medical assistance, utility subsidies.  DONT TRY AND DODGE THE COST by passing it on to employers. 

Common sense tells you that the higher something costs you, or business the more they want to get rid of it.  The idea that the UK or USA has a minimum wage and have large economies is not a validation.  It does not say how much higher the employment would be in those countries if there was not a minimum wage. 

A business particularly one that deals with international trade does not just compete with other domestic employers.  They sell their products against other companies that use labor in other countries.  So taking Thailand if you raise the price of minimum wage and it is imposed on the rice and rubber industry here, those costs have to be passed on and it will impact the competitiveness against other suppliers in places like Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and the Philippines.  

You really want to help people, have the government provide skilled training centers.  Teach the minimum wage worker a trade.  Help them become a welder, electrician, builder, plumber, machinist, brick mason, car mechanic, air conditioner technician. 

Make them "worth more"  NOT COST MORE FOR NO SKILL"

[Stardust]

51 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

Sorry Stardust,

You completely miss the point.  If you want to "help" people you do not try and impose that burden on employers.  You give assistance to those in need.  The idea that somehow the poor worker's problems can be solved by dumping the problem on the employer is as misguided as the notion that you can place taxes on businesses and "it costs nothing"  

All the experts say raising minimum wage COST JOBS So you hurt the very people you say you want to help.  Common sense, you ought to look that up.  If gasoline prices go up, people take steps to avoid them such as electric cars.  If you tax cigarettes to make the price go up, you do so to discourage their use.  If you tax gas guzzling cars, making them more expensive, you sell fewer of them.  IF YOU MAKE WORKERS MORE EXPENSIVE YOU HIRE LESS OF THEM AND FIND ALTERNATIVES TO USING THEM. 

This liberal naiveite that somehow you can just pass an increase in costs to employers and they will not respond is more than just ludicrous, it is insane.  It is fine that you want to help those earning low incomes. Do so by direct subsidies to their food, clothing, shelter, medical expenses and utility costs.  More importantly start job training programs to "lift" them out of minimum wage jobs.  THAT HELPS THE ECONOMY. 

When the automobile assembly company considers coming into Thailand or expanding and it finds it can hire workers cheaper elsewhere, guess what, they go elsewhere.  So much for helping.  When the furniture manufacturer here in Thailand can't compete with lower prices for the same furniture made in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, or the Philippines and goes out of business, so much for your "helping the working poor"  When the family of 6 goes to buy food and finds it is much more expensive because the workers in the farms now make more money and those costs are pushed along, well I am sure they will thank you for taking money from their pockets to pay to others.  When the rice, and rubber products two of the main exports from Thailand have to raise their prices and no longer find they can sell because of cheaper products elsewhere, I am sure those workers in the rice fields and rubber plantations will thank you for their 4.92 baht per hour, but multiplied by 0 hours since the exports have shrank. 

Perhaps using your thinking, you should just plant the magic beans from Jack & the beanstalk climb and grab the goose that lays the golden eggs to give everyone.  That has as much credence as the thought that minimum wage doesn't have any unintended bad consequences.  

 



https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2021-02/56975-Minimum-Wage.pdf





https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/raising-minimum-wage-to-15-would-cost-1point4-million-jobs-cbo-says.html




https://www.wsj.com/articles/raising-the-minimum-wage-will-definitely-cost-jobs-11616108030

Sorry but do you in any way understand the word exploitation and the fundamentals of economy? Any employer who like to exploit the labour is a criminal and for sure should not have any licence any more. We are talking about a few hundred and go under this is in all econmies in democratic countries illegal , same like forced labour! To advertising exploitation and say it is not the problem of the employer is really absurd, then they can come also I can make more profit with child work and forced labour. Inform you about what is legal and what is just criminal. And also your false claims about economy what is against any teached economy fundamentals in all western schools, universities or from any leading economist doesn't bring it any better light. Any employer need the qualifaction and for sure has to follow the rule of laws. And by the way which qualified and not criminal businessman is making any enterprise what not have enough benefit to afford a few hundred baht for his staff?! I really never met one!

[LoongFred]

16 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Sorry Stardust,

You completely miss the point.  If you want to "help" people you do not try and impose that burden on employers.  You give assistance to those in need.  The idea that somehow the poor worker's problems can be solved by dumping the problem on the employer is as misguided as the notion that you can place taxes on businesses and "it costs nothing"  

All the experts say raising minimum wage COST JOBS So you hurt the very people you say you want to help.  Common sense, you ought to look that up.  If gasoline prices go up, people take steps to avoid them such as electric cars.  If you tax cigarettes to make the price go up, you do so to discourage their use.  If you tax gas guzzling cars, making them more expensive, you sell fewer of them.  IF YOU MAKE WORKERS MORE EXPENSIVE YOU HIRE LESS OF THEM AND FIND ALTERNATIVES TO USING THEM. 

This liberal naiveite that somehow you can just pass an increase in costs to employers and they will not respond is more than just ludicrous, it is insane.  It is fine that you want to help those earning low incomes. Do so by direct subsidies to their food, clothing, shelter, medical expenses and utility costs.  More importantly start job training programs to "lift" them out of minimum wage jobs.  THAT HELPS THE ECONOMY. 

When the automobile assembly company considers coming into Thailand or expanding and it finds it can hire workers cheaper elsewhere, guess what, they go elsewhere.  So much for helping.  When the furniture manufacturer here in Thailand can't compete with lower prices for the same furniture made in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, or the Philippines and goes out of business, so much for your "helping the working poor"  When the family of 6 goes to buy food and finds it is much more expensive because the workers in the farms now make more money and those costs are pushed along, well I am sure they will thank you for taking money from their pockets to pay to others.  When the rice, and rubber products two of the main exports from Thailand have to raise their prices and no longer find they can sell because of cheaper products elsewhere, I am sure those workers in the rice fields and rubber plantations will thank you for their 4.92 baht per hour, but multiplied by 0 hours since the exports have shrank. 

Perhaps using your thinking, you should just plant the magic beans from Jack & the beanstalk climb and grab the goose that lays the golden eggs to give everyone.  That has as much credence as the thought that minimum wage doesn't have any unintended bad consequences.  

 



https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2021-02/56975-Minimum-Wage.pdf





https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/08/raising-minimum-wage-to-15-would-cost-1point4-million-jobs-cbo-says.html




https://www.wsj.com/articles/raising-the-minimum-wage-will-definitely-cost-jobs-11616108030

It would be nice to increase wages without inflation, but it usually doesn't work. Automation pays when cost of automated equipment is less than payroll costs. People find ways to make things work and it often means cutting labor costs rather than increasing pay. It's all creating balance. 

The answer isn't more pay but to make workers more valuable to employers.  This can happen but better training programs, education opertunities, etc. Those doing manual labor who are the lowest paid will suffer the most.

[longwood50]

2 hours ago, LoongFred said:

The answer isn't more pay but to make workers more valuable to employers.  This can happen but better training programs, education opertunities, etc. Those doing manual labor who are the lowest paid will suffer the most

You are absolutely correct.  Decisions in life have consequences both good and bad.  Those people who decided to stay in school get a good education and get trained for a job whether that is a nurse, doctor, lawyer, auto mechanic, welder etc can expect to earn more because they offer more to an employer than zero skills.  Common sense tells you that if a merchant is currently paying 336 baht for a product and now the price increases to 492 baht, that merchant is going to have to raise their price.  The higher the price goes, the less people can afford to buy it.  

The normal business spends between 20% and 25% of its total expenses on labor.  An increase from 336 yo 492 baht is a 42% increase.  That means its total expenses went up about 8% to 11%.  

Using Walmart the worlds biggest retailer as an example, after paying all its expenses its net profit margin on sales is 1.4%.  There is no way that Walmart could absorb and increase of 46% of its labor costs and not increase prices.  That is the same for Thai companies that hire a lot of minimum wage employees. 

The result will in total not benefit those making minimum wage.  They will lose hours or their jobs.  Some will benefit but restaurants will have to raise prices, resulting in fewer customers, hotels will have to raise prices discouraging tourists, etc.  

It is fine to want to help those who earn very little, but the minimum wage is not the way.  You can subsidize their necessities, and provide training to help them get a better paying job.  Raising the minimum wage is akin to throwing a drowning man an anchor. 

[longwood50]

23 hours ago, Stardust said:

Sorry but do you in any way understand the word exploitation and the fundamentals of economy?

You call it "exploitation" No, the worker is willing to work for that wage.  If the worker is "worth" more than 336 baht per day he/she should go elsewhere.  If they can not the employer is not exploiting them, he/she is paying them their worth as determined by the market.  Now you blame the employer, I blame the employee.  If the employee wants to earn more they should acquire skills that make them worth more, not demand to be paid more for work the marketplace says it is not worth. 

As repeated, it is FINE TO HELP but the minimum wage is akin to throwing a drowning man an anchor.  Businesses that can now have a greater incentive to pay the costs to automate to eliminate the job.  Businesses such as rice and rubber that use unskilled labor will have to raise their prices. Guess what, Thailand is not the only country that sells rice and rubber.  So if the price of Thailand products goes up compared to the other countries, it will sell less of those products reducing the jobs since less product is sold. 

Also, when the price increases hit the stores for groceries, gas, clothing, medicine, rent, etc for those products or services using minimum wage workers, EVERYONE including the other working poor and those making minimum wage pay more for their daily necessities.  So you are prospectively helping one group of people by hurting another.  That includes those not employees but vendors who buy their plastic bags, meat, plastic utensils, vegetables, etc to sell them in the local markets.  

Like it or not, labor is a commodity.  The value of your home, or car is determined not by what you think it is worth, or what you have invested in it.  It is determined by what a buyer is willing to pay for it.  The same is true for minimum wage, unskilled labor.  If labor costs were uniform throughout the world, an identical minimum wage would raise prices but not be an advantage or disadvantage to any business located in any country.  However it is not.  Higher prices mean less tourists, hurting those in the tourist industry, Higher prices hurt the exporters who have to compete with identical products sold by exporters in Vietnam, Myamar, Laos, Cambodia, or the Philippines.  

This is just one example of how business responds to higher wage costs.  When the cost of automation is cheaper than labor then business invests to ELIMINATE the job.  This machine fills the drinks reducing the need for a McDonalds clerk to fill the cups. The next is self service gas stations.  Those "minimum wage" Thai gas station attendants would be targets for automation.  Think that won't happen here.  This is Bangkok with self service checkouts   So don't expect any Thank You's from the workers whose hours, are cut, businesses closed or are fired for your well intentioned but misguided program to "help them."

As said, all the experts show irrespective of country, you raise the price of labor and the worker gets hurt, not helped. 

<excess images without link removed>

Edited February 14, 2022 by Faz
Excess images removed.

[Stardust]

49 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

You call it "exploitation" No, the worker is willing to work for that wage.  If the worker is "worth" more than 336 baht per day he/she should go elsewhere.  If they can not the employer is not exploiting them, he/she is paying them their worth as determined by the market.  Now you blame the employer, I blame the employee.  If the employee wants to earn more they should acquire skills that make them worth more, not demand to be paid more for work the marketplace says it is not worth. 

As repeated, it is FINE TO HELP but the minimum wage is akin to throwing a drowning man an anchor.  Businesses that can now have a greater incentive to pay the costs to automate to eliminate the job.  Businesses such as rice and rubber that use unskilled labor will have to raise their prices. Guess what, Thailand is not the only country that sells rice and rubber.  So if the price of Thailand products goes up compared to the other countries, it will sell less of those products reducing the jobs since less product is sold. 

Also, when the price increases hit the stores for groceries, gas, clothing, medicine, rent, etc for those products or services using minimum wage workers, EVERYONE including the other working poor and those making minimum wage pay more for their daily necessities.  So you are prospectively helping one group of people by hurting another.  That includes those not employees but vendors who buy their plastic bags, meat, plastic utensils, vegetables, etc to sell them in the local markets.  

Like it or not, labor is a commodity.  The value of your home, or car is determined not by what you think it is worth, or what you have invested in it.  It is determined by what a buyer is willing to pay for it.  The same is true for minimum wage, unskilled labor.  If labor costs were uniform throughout the world, an identical minimum wage would raise prices but not be an advantage or disadvantage to any business located in any country.  However it is not.  Higher prices mean less tourists, hurting those in the tourist industry, Higher prices hurt the exporters who have to compete with identical products sold by exporters in Vietnam, Myamar, Laos, Cambodia, or the Philippines.  

This is just one example of how business responds to higher wage costs.  When the cost of automation is cheaper than labor then business invests to ELIMINATE the job.  This machine fills the drinks reducing the need for a McDonalds clerk to fill the cups. The next is self service gas stations.  Those "minimum wage" Thai gas station attendants would be targets for automation.  Think that won't happen here.  This is Bangkok with self service checkouts   So don't expect any Thank You's from the workers whose hours, are cut, businesses closed or are fired for your well intentioned but misguided program to "help them."

As said, all the experts show irrespective of country, you raise the price of labor and the worker gets hurt, not helped. 

For sure it is exploitation and also in your country and fure sure illegal there. And for sure yiu theories will be never teached in the Michigan University you claimed you have been!

[longwood50]

3 hours ago, Stardust said:

For sure it is exploitation and also in your country and fure sure illegal there. And for sure yiu theories will be never teached in the Michigan University you claimed you have been!

No it is not exploitation and yes the USA does have a minimum wage.  It also has a job outflow to third world countries.  So COST MATTERS

I don't know which part of IF YOU WANT TO HELP PEOPLE DO SO WITH DIRECT AID you find so difficult to understand.  Simple question.  If minimum wage does not have any negative impact tell me why you don't support making it 1,000 baht per day, or 10,000 baht per day.  After all you believe in this illusion that somehow the employer and/or the employers customers are somehow protected from any price increases and employees won't have their jobs eliminated or hours cut.  YOU ARE SADLY WRONG.  You appear to be like many liberals in the USA that believe you can give huge raises, mandated healthcare, free college and somehow "nobody has to pay for it"  

I am from Michigan, and I can tell you that the state was once the heart of the US economy.  We produced cars, televisions, appliances, machine goods, dies for manufacturing.  The city I hailed from Grand Rapids was once called the furniture capital of the world.  Because of high wages the furniture moved to the Carolinas and now overseas predominately to Vietnam.  The manufacturing jobs went mostly to Mexico. 

You want to improve the standard of living in Thailand.  INCREASE THE SKILLS HERE.  Not raise the expense to do business here.  If you increased the skill level here to provide for computer chip manufacturing it would provide good paying jobs.  Instead you think somehow it is preferable to make the rice farmer just pay more to harvest the crop.  DUMB. 

China as learned to elevate the standard of living YOU BRING JOBS THERE.  Not make it more expensive for existing businesses to operate.  I owned a trucking company and I can tell you after government mandates "to protect the worker" so increased the cost of having a truck driver the industry rapidly responded with no employees but hired truck drivers who owned their own trucks and sold their services.   Now guess what as independent contractors they don't have a minimum wage, no overtime, no health insurance, no workers compensation, and if they lose money, too bad.  That is how "helping them secure benefits" worked out.  DHL and Fed Ex freight now don't have "employees" they have contractors 

I can envision the rice, and rubber farmers here "leasing" their land to people to harvest and then buying the rice and rubber harvested.  That would eliminate the people as employees, no minimum wage and put them at risk to lose rather than make money.  Not any different than the food vendor who rents a spot in one of the markets for 300 baht a day and hopes to sell enough product to make a living. 

Raise the quality of the work force to secure a better future for Thailand.  Hanging the future on raising the standard of living here by raising the minimum wage will be about as effective as a person standing in a river trying to swim by pulling himself up by his bootstraps. 


 

 

 

DHL uses independent contractors to provide dedicated pickup and delivery work in many parts of the U.S

<excess images without links removed>













 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Faz
Excess images removed.

[Stonker]

20 hours ago, Stardust said:

And also your false claims about economy what is against any teached economy fundamentals in all western schools, universities or from any leading economist doesn't bring it any better light.

I don't know where you learnt your " teached economy fundamentals in all western schools, universities" but however much I've disagreed with @longwood50 in the past, what he's saying here is as basic a part of economics as it comes, as anyone who's read any Kinsey could tell you.

 

1 hour ago, Stardust said:

And for sure yiu theories will be never teached in the Michigan University you claimed you have been!

I don't know about Michigan Uni, but they're a basic part of economics as it's taught pretty much everywhere else.

 

On 2/13/2022 at 12:45 PM, Stardust said:

If sombody who even doesn't know something about economic fundamentals what is fundamental in every qualyfied school, university and no top economist ever would agree in any developed and economic succesfull country around the world, for sure I will doubt any of his claims or reports.

Well, how about naming any "qualyfied school, university" or "top economist" that agree with you?  any at all ...

[Cabra]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:35 PM, Poolie said:

Oh well. You're obviously too intelligent for us lesser beings here, aren't you?

And you answered the question why everybody hates Americans. For that I thank you.

Hey Poolie, for the record, most Americans dislike Americans like this guy. Just saying.

[Stardust]

10 minutes ago, Stonker said:

I don't know where you learnt your " teached economy fundamentals in all western schools, universities" but however much I've disagreed with @longwood50 in the past, what he's saying here is as basic a part of economics as it comes, as anyone who's read any Kinsey could tell you.

I don't know about Michigan Uni, but they're a basic part of economics as it's taught pretty much everywhere else.

Well, how about naming any "qualyfied school, university" or "top economist" that agree with you?  any at all ...

The point was exploitation, enterprises what not have not enough benefit that cannot afford a few hundred baht, wages important fir the domestic economy, etc . I dont want name all it would pages but you can google/wikipedia how are the meassures for a succesfull economy and listed (gdp per capita, etc ,etc), etc. And this are basics and teached in every proper university! And 100% no top economist would say anything else or has other meassures for economies! To read all in detail use wikipedia or the universities works about economy, management, etc in the internet!

[Stonker]

7 minutes ago, Stardust said:

The point was exploitation, enterprises what not have not enough benefit that cannot afford a few hundred baht, wages important fir the domestic economy, etc . I dont want name all it would pages but you can google/wikipedia how are the meassures for a succesfull economy and listed (gdp per capita, etc ,etc), etc. And this are basics and teached in every proper university! And 100% no top economist would say anything else or has other meassures for economies! To read all in detail use wikipedia or the universities works about economy, management, etc in the internet!

So you can't name even a single "proper university" or "top economist" that agrees with your view of how economies work ... I see ... thank you

[Cabra]

On 2/13/2022 at 12:23 PM, Marc26 said:

 But I think the point all along is those economies can absorb the higher prices they come with raising the min wage

It becomes much harder in a country like Thailand 

Thailand has had minimum wage laws on the books since the 70s. They have done far more good than harm contrary to what the Western biased arguments presented in this thread purport

[Stardust]

17 minutes ago, Stonker said:

So you can't name even a single "proper university" or "top economist" that agrees with your view of how economies work ... I see ... thank you

Omg learn to read I said all proper universities and top economists. For sure I am to lazy now listing all universities in Europe, USA or around the world and waste my time with this. Are you really that kind of childish?

[Stonker]

10 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Omg learn to read I said all proper universities and top economists. For sure I am to lazy now listing all universities in Europe, USA or around the world and waste my time with this. Are you really that kind of childish?

I know what you said - it's simply untrue.  Sorry, but there's no point in continuing this as you're making claims that you're unwillijng and unable to support and just reverting to form.

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Omg learn to read I said all proper universities and top economists. For sure I am to lazy now listing all universities in Europe, USA or around the world and waste my time with this. Are you really that kind of childish?

Suggest single source Milton Friedman on real world effective Economics.  

[Stonker]

28 minutes ago, Cabra said:

Thailand has had minimum wage laws on the books since the 70s. They have done far more good than harm contrary to what the Western biased arguments presented in this thread purport

Agreed, @Cabra, but they've never been hiked by 42% before, just kept in line with inflation after starting with a reasonable minimum.

If you're going to tell employers to pay 42% more, upping their overall costs by 10% or so - more in many cases - then they have to have an economic reason to do so or they'll just go elsewhere or cut the number of employees.

Remember it's not just those who are getting minimum wage who'll need a pay rise, but everyone as you need to maintain pay differentials at all levels otherwise there's no point in staff being more skilled or productive. How can any company afford to increase all wages by approaching 42%, or even a reasonable fraction of that, without either putting up their prices or going out of business?  The only option they have is to reduce the numbers they're paying, and that's hardly going to help anyone.

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

No it is not exploitation and yes the USA does have a minimum wage.  It also has a job outflow to third world countries.  So COST MATTERS

I don't know which part of IF YOU WANT TO HELP PEOPLE DO SO WITH DIRECT AID you find so difficult to understand.  Simple question.  If minimum wage does not have any negative impact tell me why you don't support making it 1,000 baht per day, or 10,000 baht per day.  After all you believe in this illusion that somehow the employer and/or the employers customers are somehow protected from any price increases and employees won't have their jobs eliminated or hours cut.  YOU ARE SADLY WRONG.  You appear to be like many liberals in the USA that believe you can give huge raises, mandated healthcare, free college and somehow "nobody has to pay for it"  

I am from Michigan, and I can tell you that the state was once the heart of the US economy.  We produced cars, televisions, appliances, machine goods, dies for manufacturing.  The city I hailed from Grand Rapids was once called the furniture capital of the world.  Because of high wages the furniture moved to the Carolinas and now overseas predominately to Vietnam.  The manufacturing jobs went mostly to Mexico. 

You want to improve the standard of living in Thailand.  INCREASE THE SKILLS HERE.  Not raise the expense to do business here.  If you increased the skill level here to provide for computer chip manufacturing it would provide good paying jobs.  Instead you think somehow it is preferable to make the rice farmer just pay more to harvest the crop.  DUMB. 

China as learned to elevate the standard of living YOU BRING JOBS THERE.  Not make it more expensive for existing businesses to operate.  I owned a trucking company and I can tell you after government mandates "to protect the worker" so increased the cost of having a truck driver the industry rapidly responded with no employees but hired truck drivers who owned their own trucks and sold their services.   Now guess what as independent contractors they don't have a minimum wage, no overtime, no health insurance, no workers compensation, and if they lose money, too bad.  That is how "helping them secure benefits" worked out.  DHL and Fed Ex freight now don't have "employees" they have contractors 

I can envision the rice, and rubber farmers here "leasing" their land to people to harvest and then buying the rice and rubber harvested.  That would eliminate the people as employees, no minimum wage and put them at risk to lose rather than make money.  Not any different than the food vendor who rents a spot in one of the markets for 300 baht a day and hopes to sell enough product to make a living. 

Raise the quality of the work force to secure a better future for Thailand.  Hanging the future on raising the standard of living here by raising the minimum wage will be about as effective as a person standing in a river trying to swim by pulling himself up by his bootstraps. 


 

 

 

DHL uses independent contractors to provide dedicated pickup and delivery work in many parts of the U.S

Used to buy Steelcase office furniture for SaudiAramco early 80’s. Worked as contractor last 30 years. Agree with your entire post. UK Socialists also believe that jobs won’t disappear when govt. min wage increased… because “businesses can afford it “but none of them ever had a real business or job ….

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Agreed, @Cabra, but they've never been hiked by 42% before, just kept in line with inflation after starting with a reasonable minimum.

If you're going to tell employers to pay 42% more, upping their overall costs by 10% or so - more in many cases - then they have to have an economic reason to do so or they'll just go elsewhere or cut the number of employees.

Remember it's not just those who are getting minimum wage who'll need a pay rise, but everyone as you need to maintain pay differentials at all levels otherwise there's no point in staff being more skilled or productive. How can any company afford to increase all wages by approaching 42%, or even a reasonable fraction of that, without either putting up their prices or going out of business?  The only option they have is to reduce the numbers they're paying, and that's hardly going to help anyone.

Yes or fire all protected employees and employ associates/ contractors on pure naked capitalist  (legal) basis. 

[Stonker]

8 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Suggest single source Milton Friedman on real world effective Economics.  

Friedman, Keynes, von Heyek, Klein, Ostrom, Reinhart, Stiglitz, Sharpe, Laffer, Pissarides, Kahneman, all had various economic theories but apparently none knew much about economics and they're all ignored by the "proper universities"

[Stardust]

13 minutes ago, Stonker said:

I know what you said - it's simply untrue.  Sorry, but there's no point in continuing this as you're making claims that you're unwillijng and unable to support and just reverting to form.

Omg , then name me the universties who use other messures for economies like they use for the top listings of the most developed, strongest and succesfull economies and as they use they  also use for the lusting of the most developped countries in the world listing! It is just only bla bla with no substance and childish what you are writing! By the way all in the top listings countries have minimum wages! 

[Stonker]

4 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Yes or fire all protected employees and employ associates/ contractors on pure naked capitalist  (legal) basis. 

Or illegal workers as the savings in wages will pay any fines ...

[Stonker]

8 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Omg , then name me the universties who use other messures for economies like they use for the top listings of the most developed, strongest and succesfull economies and as they use they  also use for the lusting of the most developped countries in the world listing!

But we're not talking about how to measure economies, etc.

Nobody is, although it's hard to tell what you're talking about.

We're talking about the effects of putting up the minimum wage by 42%.

That's the topic.  That's what the article is about.  That's what everyone else here is discussing.

8 minutes ago, Stardust said:

It is just only bla bla with no substance and childish what you are writing! By the way all in the top listings countries have minimum wages! 

So because they have a minimum wage that's why they're "in the top listing countries"?

You're confusing correlation and causation.

Edit:

and it may help if you looked at how much the minimum wage is in many of those countries with the "most developed, strongest and succesfull economies", such as China and India - and Thailand, which is actually in the top 25.

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

[oldschooler]

3 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Or illegal workers as the savings in wages will pay any fines ...

However once legal & industry standards are compromised for cost savings and increased profits , and tolerated / institutionalized, it’s a fast “ free fall” to producing dangerous junk aka CCP China Counterfeiting & shaky Construction.or tainted Food. People start dying ……

[Cabra]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Agreed, @Cabra, but they've never been hiked by 42% before, just kept in line with inflation after starting with a reasonable minimum.

If you're going to tell employers to pay 42% more, upping their overall costs by 10% or so - more in many cases - then they have to have an economic reason to do so or they'll just go elsewhere or cut the number of employees.

Remember it's not just those who are getting minimum wage who'll need a pay rise, but everyone as you need to maintain pay differentials at all levels otherwise there's no point in staff being more skilled or productive. How can any company afford to increase all wages by approaching 42%, or even a reasonable fraction of that, without either putting up their prices or going out of business?  The only option they have is to reduce the numbers they're paying, and that's hardly going to help anyone.

What has been completely absent from this thread is actual use cases, data and information from ASEAN countries (e.g., historical and current with respect to inflation, real wages, unemployment, job growth, etc.). To date it's just been an echo chamber of Longwood50's US centric rhetoric. Granted 42% is steep by any measure. But when you look at the number of Thai people that will actually benefit from this increase (who are now working for less than 495 baht per day -- outside of small children and farmer workers), the negative impact on Thailand's job growth and inflation are likely being largely overstated. We can all oppose Min.Wage laws but they exist in almost every economy. The global macro Economists driving policy believe in them (even if some guy with an Advertising degree from a public university in the US violently  disagrees). That's all I have to say about that. What I'm more fearful of (in a historical corrupt country like THA) is that those who are in control of the means of production will falsely use the lastest min.wage  increase to price gouge. 

FUN FACT: U.S. federal minimum wage currently stands at $7.25 per hour. However, the effective nationwide minimum wage (the wage that the average minimum wage worker earns) is $11.80 as of May 2019. Even if the US legislated a 60% increase in the federal min.wage tomorrow it would have almost no real impact. p.s., US policy makers are pushing for a $15 minimum by the year 2025, so there has been a lot of hand wringing in certain circles.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Cabra