News Forum - Anutin says no to easing restrictions, praises Thailand’s handling of pandemic

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Fundok said:

I referred to the low positivity rate of 4% which means that sufficient testing is done to understand how good (or bad) the situation regarding the infections in UK is.

But that's NOT what it means. That's what YOU think it means, but those who want to use it to " understand how good (or bad) the situation regarding the infections in UK is" say that it's completely useless for that or for anything else.

No offence, but I think they're probably in a pretty good position to know - certainly a better one than you or I.

1 hour ago, Fundok said:

The question you rightfully raise is: what benefit is derived from this knowledge and does this justify the enormous costs?

No, I don't raise that question because the answer's well known by anyone who doesn't just pluck their points out of thin air - there's no "benefit" at all, and it's a complete waste of money.

Finding the "answer" was apparently too difficult, so this took me less than ten seconds (I've put the parts about it being useless in bold for you to save you time:

 

In the UK, according to the Parliamentary Commons Committee in October  "The national test-and-trace programme was allocated eye-watering sums of taxpayers’ money in the midst of a global health and economic crisis. It set out bold ambitions but has failed to achieve them despite the vast sums thrown at it. Only 14% of 691m lateral flow tests sent out had results reported, and who knows how many took the necessary action based on the results they got, or how many were never used".... and "Even now, uptake of NHS test and trace is still “variable” as some vulnerable people are much less likely to take a test than others, the report says. Urgent improvements are needed in public outreach, with more than 60% of people who experience Covid-19 symptoms reporting that they have not been tested, and certain groups, such as older people, men, and some ethnic minorities, less likely to engage with the service."

Greg Clark, last October, the chair of Parliament's Science and Technology Committee, said that it was "an extraordinary sum of money" to spend on a system that didn't work efficiently, "That is a thousand pounds for every household in the country....When you consider the uses of taxpayer money...the performance of NHS test and trace coupled with the money that has gone into it...that is a real failure,"

...and the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee before that, back in May, said that the testing was making  "no measurable difference to the progress of the pandemic" and that it was an "unimaginable" waste of resources: "Yet despite the unimaginable resources thrown at this project Test and Trace cannot point to a measurable difference to the progress of the pandemic, and the promise on which this huge expense was justified - avoiding another lockdown – has been broken, twice."

I realise that's all about the UK, but you're holding the UK up as a "role model" compared to Thailand, to put "Thailand's handling of the pandemic" into perspective, at least over testing.

It isn't.

According to UK's Parliamentary Committees, who really should be in a position to know, the UK's testing has been "a real failure" - their words.

 

 

 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, LoongFred said:

Maybe the  number in the hospital or deaths are better indicators. 

Exactly - particularly if the excess death numbers reflect and support the Covid death numbers, and they're recorded in the same way, as they do and are here and in most of the West.

Thailand:            319 Covid deaths per million.  

Switzerland:   1,482 Covid deaths per million.

UK:                   2,365 Covid deaths per million.

USA:                 2,759 deaths per million.

... but let's forget that that's what the topic's about, and talk about the junta instead

[vlad]

I see where your coming from Stonker but do you believe the figures being issued by the officials are correct or are they keeping the numbers down so potential tourists are put off through fear of high death rates due to Coved.

[Soidog]

On 2/8/2022 at 4:39 PM, LoongFred said:

Unemployment in Thailand is very low. The bartenders and bar girls need retraining. 

. Unemployment in Thailand is very low . You mean the official government massaged unemployment figures are very low. Big big difference Fred. You are always good for a laugh, I’ll give you that

Edited February 10, 2022 by Faz
offensive term removed

[Soidog]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

Exactly - particularly if the excess death numbers reflect and support the Covid death numbers, and they're recorded in the same way, as they do and are here and in most of the West.

Thailand:            319 Covid deaths per million.  

Switzerland:   1,482 Covid deaths per million.

UK:                   2,365 Covid deaths per million.

USA:                 2,759 deaths per million.

... but let's forget that that's what the topic's about, and talk about the junta instead

But your figures only work if you take the official Thai government death figures Stonker. Two wrongs don’t make a right. 

[LoongFred]

6 minutes ago, Soidog said:

. Unemployment in Thailand is very low . You mean the official government massaged unemployment figures are very low. Big big difference Looney Fred. You are always good for a laugh, I’ll give you that

Not really. Jobs seem plentiful for those who want to work. In fact it's difficult to hire workers for smaller job. I know from experience, that workers jobs that last several weeks minimum. Hiring household staff is impossible, even with good pay and conditions. 

It might be different elsewhere but not in the north.

[Fundok]

4 hours ago, LoongFred said:

You know that if you test negative today you could be infected tomorrow and test positive. Even the positive rate or negative rates aren't that meaningful. Maybe the  umber in the hospital or deaths are better indicators. 

Sure, a test is a snapshot. I could infect myself 5 minutes after the test, but this is not the point. The positivity rate does tell you how well the testing reflects the actual dimension of infections. So a rate exceeding 5% says that there are more infections out there. The hospitalisation rate is a good indicator with regards to the questions if hospital capacities are stretched to the limit. But this indicator only reflects the infection situation 10-14 days ago, as no one is confined to the hospital immediately after the infection.

Number of deaths is potentially also a valid indicator, but then one needs to ascertain if a) a person that deceased was infected and b) if the death is solely attributable to Covid or if any co-morbidities are to blame (i.e. the person died because of cancer in the last stage but also had Covid or this person was not tested, had Covid, and the death was attributed to cancer). So very tricky to draw a line here.

[LoongFred]

12 minutes ago, Soidog said:

But your figures only work if you take the official Thai government death figures Stonker. Two wrongs don’t make a right. 

How about your accurate numbers (?). Or do you just make things up.

[LoongFred]

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

So you don’t call the destruction of the tourism business for months longer than necessary draconian? 
 

You don’t call the closure of schools for months on end which destroys the education of the next generation draconian?  Or perhaps you accept that with such poor education standards it doesn’t really make much difference? 

You don’t call the need for mask wearing in cars and open spaces such as beaches draconian?

You don’t call the blatant opening of businesses in Bangkok (the highest area for Covid) while regions such as the one you live in are still controlled and limited draconian? 
 

You don’t call the continued use of the Covid “emergency decree” to clamp down on political dissidents and freedom of speech draconian? 
 

Im not sure what Thailand you believe you are living in, but it’s sure not the one most rational people observe. 

I don't want to counter your every statement, except your way off. You must be bitter that Thailand's response to covid worked and your plans to return earlier were put on hold or haven't worked out. How else could one explain your constant negative bitter responses to Thailand's handling of covid. Thailand after all has weathered the covid crisis much better than the EU or UK .

I can't understand why someone so bitter and negative comes to Thailand. After all you have no ability to change anything. 

My view is the medical community has and continues to do an outstanding job. I'm happy to be here.

 

[Fundok]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

But that's NOT what it means. That's what YOU think it means, but those who want to use it to " understand how good (or bad) the situation regarding the infections in UK is" say that it's completely useless for that or for anything else.

No offence, but I think they're probably in a pretty good position to know - certainly a better one than you or I.

No, I don't raise that question because the answer's well known by anyone who doesn't just pluck their points out of thin air - there's no "benefit" at all, and it's a complete waste of money.

Finding the "answer" was apparently too difficult, so this took me less than ten seconds (I've put the parts about it being useless in bold for you to save you time:

In the UK, according to the Parliamentary Commons Committee in October  "The national test-and-trace programme was allocated eye-watering sums of taxpayers’ money in the midst of a global health and economic crisis. It set out bold ambitions but has failed to achieve them despite the vast sums thrown at it. Only 14% of 691m lateral flow tests sent out had results reported, and who knows how many took the necessary action based on the results they got, or how many were never used".... and "Even now, uptake of NHS test and trace is still “variable” as some vulnerable people are much less likely to take a test than others, the report says. Urgent improvements are needed in public outreach, with more than 60% of people who experience Covid-19 symptoms reporting that they have not been tested, and certain groups, such as older people, men, and some ethnic minorities, less likely to engage with the service."

Greg Clark, last October, the chair of Parliament's Science and Technology Committee, said that it was "an extraordinary sum of money" to spend on a system that didn't work efficiently, "That is a thousand pounds for every household in the country....When you consider the uses of taxpayer money...the performance of NHS test and trace coupled with the money that has gone into it...that is a real failure,"

...and the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee before that, back in May, said that the testing was making  "no measurable difference to the progress of the pandemic" and that it was an "unimaginable" waste of resources: "Yet despite the unimaginable resources thrown at this project Test and Trace cannot point to a measurable difference to the progress of the pandemic, and the promise on which this huge expense was justified - avoiding another lockdown – has been broken, twice."

I realise that's all about the UK, but you're holding the UK up as a "role model" compared to Thailand, to put "Thailand's handling of the pandemic" into perspective, at least over testing.

It isn't.

According to UK's Parliamentary Committees, who really should be in a position to know, the UK's testing has been "a real failure" - their words.

You are free to assess the benefit of the testing regime as you see fit. I have not made any statement in this respect because there are no easy answers. But if testing were indeed such a waste of money: why test at all? Why do I have to provide 3 tests to get into Thailand?

I am not in a position to say if the testing in UK was good or bad. If you would have read my post carefully you would have noticed that I applauded that, given the low positivity rate, UK obviously has a good picture of where it currently stands with infections. I did make no comment to the question if this was economically wise or not. I do not think that the assessment "too expensive" is the only possible assessment. Have lives been saved because previously undetected infected persons were quarantined and could not infect others? Possibly yes. What price tag do you put on a live that was saved? No easy answers.

[Stonker]

49 minutes ago, Soidog said:

But your figures only work if you take the official Thai government death figures Stonker. Two wrongs don’t make a right. 

Well, they also "work" if you take the excess death figures, or the Statista figures, or the Worldindata figures, or Worldometers figures ......

[Stonker]

22 minutes ago, Fundok said:

If you would have read my post carefully you would have noticed that I applauded that, given the low positivity rate, UK obviously has a good picture of where it currently stands with infections.

I did.

It doesn't.

Unless the British Parliament's  , the chair of Parliament's Science and Technology Committee is wrong about their own testing system, of course, and you know better .

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, vlad said:

I see where your coming from Stonker but do you believe the figures being issued by the officials are correct or are they keeping the numbers down so potential tourists are put off through fear of high death rates due to Coved.

I'm not suggesting the figures are exactly correct anywhere, @vlad, but this whole idea that the figures and cases are being hidden to make the government look good or to not put off potential tourists is simply absurd.

It's not just that they're in line with excess deaths and accepted by the WHO, statista, worldometers, etc, but I can go on 'Line' and see the number of cases, number quarantined at home, and number in the local quarantine centres not just for the province but for every district in the province.

I know exactly how many there are in the local quarantine centre in my district because I and my (Thai) partner know people who work there and we see and talk to them every week,  and go past it every week.

I know how many are quarantining at home in the district because they put a string around the perimeter of every house where someone's quarantined with signs and little red flags on it - seriously! 

Everyone admitted to hospital gets tested now, and certainly locally they get tested again on discharge (ATK tests, but it gives a good idea).

I can't guarantee they're correct in every district but I seriously doubt they're making a special effort for my benefit !

It's the 21st century: you can't keep these things secret anymore - everyone talks.

I'm tempted to say all the talk about fudged figures is just 'stupid', but it's not - it's just isolated farang arrogance trying to excuse their own countries stuffing things up. 

 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Fundok said:

The positivity rate does tell you how well the testing reflects the actual dimension of infections. So a rate exceeding 5% says that there are more infections out there.

No it doesn't. I've tried to explain to you in simple terms why the 'positivity rate' is meaningless unless every country tests in the same way, but you either can't understand it or you just can't accept it and won't accept that Thailand has done way better than others such as Switzerland.

1 hour ago, Fundok said:

Number of deaths is potentially also a valid indicator, but then one needs to ascertain if a) a person that deceased was infected and b) if the death is solely attributable to Covid or if any co-morbidities are to blame (i.e. the person died because of cancer in the last stage but also had Covid or this person was not tested, had Covid, and the death was attributed to cancer). So very tricky to draw a line here.

It's not "tricky"at all - if Covid is on the death certificate as a contributory factor it's a Covid death, and if it's not then it's not a Covid death, whether it's in Thailand, Switzerland, or the UK.

However hard that is for you to accept, it isn't "tricky".

[MikeW]

6 hours ago, LoongFred said:

Outside of Pattaya I don't see unemployed. Perhaps those out of work in Pattaya should follow the work. 

Seems very easy to find work, if you want to work. 

Most of them aren't willing to work in the fields for 300 bhat a day 

[Alavan]

3 hours ago, LoongFred said:

You must be bitter that Thailand's response to covid worked

Waiting to long to order good vaccines and trusting sinovac an own produced AZ wasn't such a brillant planning.
Yes, all countries made mistakes, but there aren't any I know of where health workers already got 4 injections as the first ones didn't work. Nor do you see the vaccin cocktails given like in Thailand.
Strict lockdown where people could not leave their region, or even town, prohibition of travelling worked. But I don't know many countries where people are so docile, even if they don't like it, like Thailand.
Whatever political, economical or other decissions are in place... don't protest it, don't fight it.

[Rangers]

Good to see the UK ending all remaining covid restrictions a month early. I'd expect to see the rest of the world following in the coming weeks / months. About time too.

 

[riclag]

16 hours ago, Soidog said:

Good try Stonker. If I used the term “Thais” it would have been in the context of the Thai government official figures and comparing them to Malaysia or Singapore figures. Who else produces figures for financial outlook or cases of influenza. That’s your key problem which blinds you against any criticism of Thailand. You assume people are talking about the nice noodle seller down the dirt track from where you live. What people actually mean is the government and it’s associated ministries and the control they have over source information. Open your eyes!! 
 

Im going nowhere mate. People like you are nothing more than an arrogant, argumentative and supercilious bully. I will continue to pick you up and pull your chain whenever I think you need it.   

Brilliant! 

[riclag]

15 minutes ago, Rangers said:

Good to see the UK ending all remaining covid restrictions a month early. I'd expect to see the rest of the world following in the coming weeks / months. About time too.

Me thinks this country will be one of the last to drop restrictions! Very good revenue source for some of the connected.
Happy to see the UK getting back to living 

[Withnail]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:48 PM, Stonker said:

... and the relevance of any of that little rant to anything I've said is what, precisely?

As for Covax, to go to the only possibly valid and relevant point, what exactly would Thailand have gained that it didn't get elsewhere?

Your obviously not the brightest and a bit deluded.

Thailand made a complete mess of everything virus related post Delta.

You believe the figures provided by a country that could hardly manage 40,000 proactive tests a day.

What don't you understand about that?

Let me remind you of the facts. Something that seems foreign to you.

Thailand didn't order, or attempt to order any vaccines until Delta arrived, they then got handouts from the West and their vaccine roll out was pathetically slow.

Do you understand?

 

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

43 minutes ago, Withnail said:

Your obviously not the brightest and a bit deluded.

Thailand made a complete mess of everything virus related post Delta.

You believe the figures provided by a country that could hardly manage 40,000 proactive tests a day.

What don't you understand about that?

Let me remind you of the facts. Something that seems foreign to you.

Thailand didn't order, or attempt to order any vaccines until Delta arrived, they then got handouts from the West and their vaccine roll out was pathetically slow.

Do you understand?

I'm sure BoJo / Trump & Biden managed it much better. Hence why they could now make a mountain with the many dead they have. 

Sure Thailand numbers can't be 100% real, but they can't also be that far off, otherwise you would see people dropping dead like flies. Thai numbers probably lack the asymptomatic and that's about it. 

 

COVID has killed twice as many people as WW2 in the US (908K deaths)! Compare it to 22K in Thailand! And the number of deaths for sure is mostly right

Edited February 9, 2022 by ctxa

[steve99]

1 hour ago, Rangers said:

Good to see the UK ending all remaining covid restrictions a month early. I'd expect to see the rest of the world following in the coming weeks / months. About time too.

Its a double edged sword.  Less restrictions is good but then you have more chance of catching it and regardless of the fact that it wont hurt the majority of us, it will make it very tricky to travel abroad to the likes of Thailand, waiting for a negative PCR can take many weeks after the infection is gone, vaccinated or not. 

[Fundok]

10 hours ago, Stonker said:

No it doesn't. I've tried to explain to you in simple terms why the 'positivity rate' is meaningless unless every country tests in the same way, but you either can't understand it or you just can't accept it and won't accept that Thailand has done way better than others such as Switzerland.

It's not "tricky"at all - if Covid is on the death certificate as a contributory factor it's a Covid death, and if it's not then it's not a Covid death, whether it's in Thailand, Switzerland, or the UK.

However hard that is for you to accept, it isn't "tricky".

@Stonker: Seems we disagree here. Never mind. This is what this sort of forum is for. I can accept that you do not share my view and all I expect from you is to do the same. I can't convince you and vice versa. Never mind, that's ok for me.

[Stardust]

14 hours ago, LoongFred said:

How about your accurate numbers (?). Or do you just make things up.

Show me one in Thailand who believes the numbers from the government. You really not integrated ib the Thai comunity , you must be living in a remote area as a retiree. But it is clear you not inside what Thais think, social media, Thai tv, Thai comunities, Thai history, etc etc. But the most topic from you that you use always the Thais that your claims is what the majority of Thais think and every Thai or people who raise in Thailand, lived long time here or have Thai families know your claims absolut absurd and definetly not what the Thais thinks. It is the same absurd to claim the Thais believe the justice systems, courts or law inforcement is fair and they would believe in that and including there is no corruption. Your claims and opinions is the opposite what Thais thinks or experienced and only your personal view as a farang retiree.

[Rangers]

11 hours ago, steve99 said:

Its a double edged sword.  Less restrictions is good but then you have more chance of catching it and regardless of the fact that it wont hurt the majority of us, it will make it very tricky to travel abroad to the likes of Thailand, waiting for a negative PCR can take many weeks after the infection is gone, vaccinated or not. 

Testing will soon be a thing of the past and we will be treating it like the flu. Get your jag and travel as normal will be the way forward in the coming weeks I'd imagine.