News Forum - Anutin says no to easing restrictions, praises Thailand’s handling of pandemic

[Stonker]

14 minutes ago, Fluke said:

Where abouts in Thailand have you been living ?

Loei, but we've been subject to the same restrictions as everyone else and they're simply not "draconian" - if you think they are, detail them.

The only possible one is bars, and even Prof Hanke, who is one of the most ardent anti-lockdown advocates and one of the originators of the Great Barrington Declaration said in his recent report damning lockdowns that closing non-essential businesses, primarily bars, had reduced Covid deaths by 10.6% (although, again, Thailand wasn't one of the countries studied).

If these "draconian measures" have happened to such an extent, then it should be pretty simple to detail what they were and when.

Compared to much of the West, and the countries studied, they were between small and minimal.

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Soidog said:

Almost correct Stonker as usual. I doubt them because they are manipulated and controlled by a military junta who I wouldn’t trust if they told me it was raining outside, not because they are counted by Thais.

If memory serves, what you actually said was that you'd only accept stats from Thailand that weren't counted / produced by Thais, and you added something along the lines that you'd only accept figures from elsewhere in Asean from Singapore or Malaysia.

To make it worthwhile my wasting time checking to see if that's "almost correct" or 100% spot on, how about you agreeing to depart the board forever if I find it and I'll do the same if I don't?

[MikeW]

12 hours ago, DontacoXII said:

Perhaps Anutin would like to mail out Montetary reimbursement to every Thai citizen who is out of work due to the continued closures and restrictions caused by his decisions. I bet he hasn’t missed a meal or had to sell personal effects to pay the light bill. Easy to make the hard choices when your not in the trenches. 

He still gets his paycheck same as the rest of the ruling junta 

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Soidog said:

It never ceases to amaze me that people like you will happily defend and support a controlling and manipulative dictatorship and yet criticise the very government structures your ancestors fought so hard for. 

It never ceases to amaze me how people like you can't understand the difference between saying you don't support or defend the current regime and saying they've got some things right.

The two are completely unconnected - just because a government is democratically elected and well-intentioned doesn't mean they get everything right, and just because another government isn't doesn't mean they get everything wrong.

I'm tempted to reply to the rest of your comment, but I think one of us being childishly offensive is enough.

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Withnail said:

Your comparing apples with..... bricks.

Age demographics, how people live, how doctors certificate deaths in Thailand, unless in hospital or being watched closely at home.

Thailand got lucky with Alpha and then tried to bargain basement procure the vaccine at a later date when the price came down.

Didn't join covax, refused free AZ from India and then had to beg and get donations when Delta arrived.

No support for their population. Unlike the West which had variations on furlough schemes for employees and support for businesses.

That's why the West has bounced back so strongly from the pandemic. Meanwhile, Thailand maintains it's place as the most unequal distribution of wealth in SE Asia.

The Thai HiSo's coined it and f**k the peasants.

Great to see the rose tinted Thai huggers spout their nonsense.

Go and learn what actually happened rather than compare a Third World country with countries that produced vaccines and therapeutics for said Third World countries.

Now the West is opening up, enjoying a return to normal, back to full rugby stadiums, return to office and acceptance of an endemic virus that now has the same mortality rate as flu in the UK.

Don't mention civilised, contributory countries in the same breath as this xenophobic hillbilly and his odious gold covered chums.

Laughable.

... and the relevance of any of that little rant to anything I've said is what, precisely?

As for Covax, to go to the only possibly valid and relevant point, what exactly would Thailand have gained that it didn't get elsewhere?

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Fundok said:

Obviously, neither CH nor TH are merely testing enough, whereas UK is a role model in this respect.

There's only one little problem with your observation that the "UK is a role model in this respect" (testing).

Not only do none of the UK's cross parliamentary committees that looked into the UK's testing programmes disagree with you, but they all say, in the most unflattering terms possible, that the UK's testing programme was a complete waste of an 'eye-watering' amount of money ($50 billion if I recall correctly) that was a disaster and achieved absolutely nothing.

I don't want to de-rail the thread by repeating just how bad the UK's own parliamentary committees all said it was, but if you do a search here for 'committee' and scroll to my posts you'll find plenty in a few seconds.

[SkylineGTR82]

It's great how Anutin celebrates himself, it's just stupid that the country's economy is on the bottom for it. But we don't have to talk about that...

The people of Thailand will surely be very grateful to him for that.

[DiJoDavO]

One day: Anutin wants to ease restrictions / CCSA blocks it. 

Another day: CCSA wants to ease restrictions / Anutin blocks it. 

[Soidog]

8 hours ago, Stonker said:

However valid your criticisms of "draconian measures" are, what possible relevance do they have if they didn't happen here?

So you don’t call the destruction of the tourism business for months longer than necessary draconian? 
 

You don’t call the closure of schools for months on end which destroys the education of the next generation draconian?  Or perhaps you accept that with such poor education standards it doesn’t really make much difference? 

You don’t call the need for mask wearing in cars and open spaces such as beaches draconian?

You don’t call the blatant opening of businesses in Bangkok (the highest area for Covid) while regions such as the one you live in are still controlled and limited draconian? 
 

You don’t call the continued use of the Covid “emergency decree” to clamp down on political dissidents and freedom of speech draconian? 
 

Im not sure what Thailand you believe you are living in, but it’s sure not the one most rational people observe. 

 

[Manu]

2 minutes ago, Soidog said:

So you don’t call the destruction of the tourism business for months longer than necessary draconian? 
 

You don’t call the closure of schools for months on end which destroys the education of the next generation draconian?  Or perhaps you accept that with such poor education standards it doesn’t really make much difference? 

You don’t call the need for mask wearing in cars and open spaces such as beaches draconian?

You don’t call the blatant opening of businesses in Bangkok (the highest area for Covid) while regions such as the one you live in are still controlled and limited draconian? 
 

You don’t call the continued use of the Covid “emergency decree” to clamp down on political dissidents and freedom of speech draconian? 
 

Im not sure what Thailand you believe you are living in, but it’s sure not the one most rational people observe. 

I guess some call something "draconian" only when it starts to affect them personally...

[Soidog]

8 hours ago, Stonker said:

If memory serves, what you actually said was that you'd only accept stats from Thailand that weren't counted / produced by Thais, and you added something along the lines that you'd only accept figures from elsewhere in Asean from Singapore or Malaysia.

To make it worthwhile my wasting time checking to see if that's "almost correct" or 100% spot on, how about you agreeing to depart the board forever if I find it and I'll do the same if I don't?

Good try Stonker. If I used the term “Thais” it would have been in the context of the Thai government official figures and comparing them to Malaysia or Singapore figures. Who else produces figures for financial outlook or cases of influenza. That’s your key problem which blinds you against any criticism of Thailand. You assume people are talking about the nice noodle seller down the dirt track from where you live. What people actually mean is the government and it’s associated ministries and the control they have over source information. Open your eyes!! 
 

Im going nowhere mate. People like you are nothing more than an arrogant, argumentative and supercilious bully. I will continue to pick you up and pull your chain whenever I think you need it.   

[Soidog]

8 hours ago, Stonker said:

just because a government is democratically elected and well-intentioned doesn't mean they get everything right, and just because another government isn't doesn't mean they get everything wrong.

Never said they did. I’m just as critical about the Uk, US and many other governments around the world. But this is a Thai centric forum. Would you wish me to start posting about the terrible way in which the Venezuelan government are behaving on here?
 

The reason I find it so difficult to praise anything this government achieves is because it so damn difficult to find anything. Add to that the rampant levels of corruption in the country and any rational person would at the very least be sceptical. 

[Soidog]

16 minutes ago, Manu said:

I guess some call something "draconian" only when it starts to affect them personally...

I think that’s right. You need empathy in order to appreciate the suffering of others. 

[Manu]

5 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I think that’s right. You need empathy in order to appreciate the suffering of others. 

A lot of it indeed. But I guess you need also to live in the real world and simply look around you. I have seen so many loosing everyting the past 2 years, including a good friend of mine who in his 50s and after many years living in Thailand had to go back to his home country in Europe with wife and kid with not a pot to piss in. Believe me, the word "draconian" is an understatement to him. While I am personally not affected whatsoever, I cannot help to feel sad and angry as I am pretty sure this whole thing could have been dealt more rationally therefore with less dramatic DIRECT impact for many people in Thailand and around the world.

[Soidog]

23 minutes ago, Manu said:

A lot of it indeed. But I guess you need also to live in the real world and simply look around you. I have seen so many loosing everyting the past 2 years, including a good friend of mine who in his 50s and after many years living in Thailand had to go back to his home country in Europe with wife and kid with not a pot to piss in. Believe me, the word "draconian" is an understatement to him. While I am personally not affected whatsoever, I cannot help to feel sad and angry as I am pretty sure this whole thing could have been dealt more rationally therefore with less dramatic DIRECT impact for many people in Thailand and around the world.

Totally agree and I’m sure the case of your friend is replicated across the country.

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out over the coming years. Many people who have “survived” have done so by selling businesses below market value to those with millions or billions in the bank, serving to widen the Thai wealth gap further. Millions have sold their only source of retirement income or spent the money saved to put kids through collage.  Millions have borrowed and living off repayment breaks by the banks. Loan sharks are just waiting to call in the debts resulting in increases of suicide and murder rates. Petty crime will rise and “rich tourists” will be an obvious source of money. I’m afraid while many countries are seeing light at the end of the tunnel; albeit with some significant tax rises, the average Thai person can only fear what the future will bring.  Like you, I’m lucky enough for this not to have affected me directly. However, I’m able to get my head out of my ass and have empathy to those that are suffering. Maybe it’s the air in Loei that makes people blind to the problems…..  

[King Cotton]

2 hours ago, DiJoDavO said:

One day: Anutin wants to ease restrictions / CCSA blocks it. 

Another day: CCSA wants to ease restrictions / Anutin blocks it. 

Thailand, to a tee . . . and probably one of the day's most relevant posts!

[Manu]

13 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Totally agree and I’m sure the case of your friend is replicated across the country.

It will be interesting to see how this all pans out over the coming years. Many people who have “survived” have done so by selling businesses below market value to those with millions or billions in the bank, serving to widen the Thai wealth gap further. Millions have sold their only source of retirement income or spent the money saved to put kids through collage.  Millions have borrowed and living off repayment breaks by the banks. Loan sharks are just waiting to call in the debts resulting in increases of suicide and murder rates. Petty crime will rise and “rich tourists” will be an obvious source of money. I’m afraid while many countries are seeing light at the end of the tunnel; albeit with some significant tax rises, the average Thai person can only fear what the future will bring.  Like you, I’m lucky enough for this not to have affected me directly. However, I’m able to get my head out of my ass and have empathy to those that are suffering. Maybe it’s the air in Loei that makes people blind to the problems…..  

Quote

I’m afraid while many countries are seeing light at the end of the tunnel;

Yeah and at what cost? And not only financially... the mental health damages are huge, especially for the  kids...

But yes, totally agree with your comment.

[LoongFred]

2 hours ago, Manu said:

Yeah and at what cost? And not only financially... the mental health damages are huge, especially for the  kids...

But yes, totally agree with your comment.

Who are you talking about? Probably British retirees who invested their saving in a bar or some tourist scene. A smart person would realize the risks and invest carefully. Business goes broke and they lose it all. Not what a responsible family person would do, IMO. 

[LoongFred]

3 hours ago, Soidog said:

Good try Stonker. If I used the term “Thais” it would have been in the context of the Thai government official figures and comparing them to Malaysia or Singapore figures. Who else produces figures for financial outlook or cases of influenza. That’s your key problem which blinds you against any criticism of Thailand. You assume people are talking about the nice noodle seller down the dirt track from where you live. What people actually mean is the government and it’s associated ministries and the control they have over source information. Open your eyes!! 
 

Im going nowhere mate. People like you are nothing more than an arrogant, argumentative and supercilious bully. I will continue to pick you up and pull your chain whenever I think you need it.   

You admit to being a part time tourist who only stays part time and does business on a tourist visa. What gives you so much insight on what's really happening? BTW,  I doubt your analogy of the noodle vendor on the dirt road. This is probably 40 years out of date.

You come to Thailand as a tourist and it's best for you understand that you have no real input on how things a run. Criticism is not becoming for guests.

 

[Fundok]

12 hours ago, Stonker said:

There's only one little problem with your observation that the "UK is a role model in this respect" (testing).

Not only do none of the UK's cross parliamentary committees that looked into the UK's testing programmes disagree with you, but they all say, in the most unflattering terms possible, that the UK's testing programme was a complete waste of an 'eye-watering' amount of money ($50 billion if I recall correctly) that was a disaster and achieved absolutely nothing.

I don't want to de-rail the thread by repeating just how bad the UK's own parliamentary committees all said it was, but if you do a search here for 'committee' and scroll to my posts you'll find plenty in a few seconds.

I referred to the low positivity rate of 4% which means that sufficient testing is done to understand how good (or bad) the situation regarding the infections in UK is. The question you rightfully raise is: what benefit is derived from this knowledge and does this justify the enormous costs? This is a political decision and was not part of my 'role model'-assessment. This said, my personal view is that only if you know what the real situation is you are in the position to make informed decisions, hence I sympathise with the approach of UK. Yes, testing is expensive, so as a political decision maker (which luckily I am not) you need to balance the benefit of having a true picture of the infection situation with the costs that go with it. My employer (or rather, the insurance association) pays for one PCR-test for all our employees per week, and offer I have embraced ever since it was made. I take a spittle sample, scan the barcode on the phiol with an app, drop the phiol in a box at the post office before 9 am and I get my test result via SMS in the evening. Wouldn't want to do this daily, but once a week is ok. Have a stash of antigen self-tests at home just in case. So obviously the testing is done differently in every country regarding the density of the tests that are made. There is also the sequencing of the positive samples to establish which virus variant is dominant which I again find a very useful information. This is way more complicated and costly and is therefore done on a mich smaller scale, with some exceptions like Denmark which sequences close to 100% of all positive tests. Not sure if this is really needed, but as I said before, every country does things a bit different.

[LoongFred]

13 hours ago, MikeW said:

He still gets his paycheck same as the rest of the ruling junta 

Outside of Pattaya I don't see unemployed. Perhaps those out of work in Pattaya should follow the work. 

Seems very easy to find work, if you want to work. 

[LoongFred]

38 minutes ago, Fundok said:

I referred to the low positivity rate of 4% which means that sufficient testing is done to understand how good (or bad) the situation regarding the infections in UK is. The question you rightfully raise is: what benefit is derived from this knowledge and does this justify the enormous costs? This is a political decision and was not part of my 'role model'-assessment. This said, my personal view is that only if you know what the real situation is you are in the position to make informed decisions, hence I sympathise with the approach of UK. Yes, testing is expensive, so as a political decision maker (which luckily I am not) you need to balance the benefit of having a true picture of the infection situation with the costs that go with it. My employer (or rather, the insurance association) pays for one PCR-test for all our employees per week, and offer I have embraced ever since it was made. I take a spittle sample, scan the barcode on the phiol with an app, drop the phiol in a box at the post office before 9 am and I get my test result via SMS in the evening. Wouldn't want to do this daily, but once a week is ok. Have a stash of antigen self-tests at home just in case. So obviously the testing is done differently in every country regarding the density of the tests that are made. There is also the sequencing of the positive samples to establish which virus variant is dominant which I again find a very useful information. This is way more complicated and costly and is therefore done on a mich smaller scale, with some exceptions like Denmark which sequences close to 100% of all positive tests. Not sure if this is really needed, but as I said before, every country does things a bit different.

You know that if you test negative today you could be infected tomorrow and test positive. Even the positive rate or negative rates aren't that meaningful. Maybe the  umber in the hospital or deaths are better indicators. 

[Stonker]

5 hours ago, Soidog said:

So you don’t call the destruction of the tourism business for months longer than necessary draconian? 

No, because the vast majority of Thais, as evidenced by every survey and by the lack of any sort of protest (by Thais) about wanting tourism to be opened / re-started, make it clear to anyone other than a foreign tourist that rather than being closed for "months longer than necessary" it hasn't been closed for long enough.

The surveys could all be wrong of course, as after all they were conducted by Thais so unreliable in your book, and the protests could all have just been unreported by anyone.

6 hours ago, Soidog said:

You don’t call the closure of schools for months on end which destroys the education of the next generation draconian?

Yes I do, but that wasn't one of the "draconian measures" of any lockdown here that had any of the effects you or anyone else has raised.

6 hours ago, Soidog said:

You don’t call the need for mask wearing in cars and open spaces such as beaches draconian?

No, because to be 'draconian' it has to be "excessively harsh and severe" and Thais don't think it is - they have no problem with it at all.

You may, but I think Thais have rather more right to say what's excessively harsh and severe in their own country and what's acceptable.

6 hours ago, Soidog said:

You don’t call the blatant opening of businesses in Bangkok (the highest area for Covid) while regions such as the one you live in are still controlled and limited draconian? 

No, because apart from bars there are none that are "still controlled and limited" around here.

You're simply mis-informed. Again.

6 hours ago, Soidog said:

You don’t call the continued use of the Covid “emergency decree” to clamp down on political dissidents and freedom of speech draconian? 

Yes, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the effectiveness of Covid measures or this topic.  It's just part of your normal rant.

[Stonker]

6 hours ago, Soidog said:

That’s your key problem which blinds you against any criticism of Thailand.

I have plenty of criticisms of Thailand - I just prefer to make them when deserved, not just as routine regardless of whether they're justified or not.

Criticising the government - any government - just becomes counter-productive when it's not justified and they clearly get something right. It just detracts from the genuine criticism and becomes nothing more than a meaningless and rather tedious rant.

[Stonker]

5 hours ago, Soidog said:

Many people who have “survived” have done so by selling businesses below market value to those with millions or billions in the bank, serving to widen the Thai wealth gap further. Millions have sold their only source of retirement income or spent the money saved to put kids through collage.  Millions have borrowed and living off repayment breaks by the banks. Loan sharks are just waiting to call in the debts resulting in increases of suicide and murder rates.

Any evidence for any of those "millions"?

Any at all?

Or is that just the case for many of those in Pattaya, Phuket, Chiang Mai, Hua Hin and limited parts of Bangkok,  where maybe two or 3 % of the population at most rely directly on foreign tourists, while far, far more have been affected far more badly by the loss of factory production ?

Something that directly and indirectly affects around ten times as many Thais, but which you're totally oblivious to as it doesn't affect you, as a tourist?