News Forum - Thailand’s mask mandate still in place, violators face fines up to 20,000 baht – CCSA

[Marc26]

19 minutes ago, Stonker said:

No, we're not "saying the same thing" because what I (and the studies) are saying is that the protection is from each other and so, within reason, the type of mask isn't crucial, while you (and your report) centred on the individual protection given by different types of mask.

I am just happy I didn't get the patented "Jesus H Christ" 5555

 

Also, I was replying to the tired Fox News parroting anti-masker that "cloth masks" don't work when they are mostly confusing 3ply medical masks with cloth masks

[oldschooler]

2 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

I am just happy I didn't get the patented "Jesus H Christ" 5555

Also, I was replying to the tired Fox News parroting anti-masker that "cloth masks" don't work when they are mostly confusing 3ply medical masks with cloth masks

As in fact I was …..

[Marc26]

14 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

As in fact I was …..

To be quite honest, I originally thought they were talking about the 3 ply medical masks as well, originally. Until I read up on it......

 

I do think they could have called them something else a bit more identifying.............

[Stonker]

32 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

 

UK Age expectancy in 1942 ( probably counted from 1940 in fact before WW2 really got going) was 67 so those dying of age related Covid would have hardly been noticed. Unfit had no NHS so would simply have died with Covid making barely a ripple.

 

Your facts are correct, but your conclusions are way beyond naive.

WW2 aside, 80 now was the physical / medical equivalent of 67 then, 70 the equivalent of 60, etc, so you have to compare by oldest percentiles or equivalent ages, not do a direct comparison by age .

Of course unexpected deaths made "a ripple" - not having an NHS didn't mean people just didn't notice them!!!

32 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Pregnant Women are not Unfit.

No, but according to your available categories for the medically vulnerable if they're not unfit that means they're either "walking dead" or they've "had a long life" .

[Stonker]

50 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Life Value calculation is easier at the extremes obviously so a functioning Brain Surgeon ( millions of  dollars?) worth more than a Serial Killer (worthless?) for example.

But those are not only not your decisions to make but ones you're not in any position to make - how do you know if the person you infect in the train or the theatre is a brain surgeon or an ex-serial killer, a Colonel or a Corporal?

Or do you ask people before deciding if they're worth masking up for ?

50 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

People with missing organs must be incredibly rare. Self - abusers are very common I would think ( possibly 1 in 5 adults?) including type 2 Diabetics, Obese ( Liver), Smokers ( Heart/Lungs), Alcoholics (Liver), Druggies (All).

I posted a link before to the numbers and causes for the 4 million who were told to shield in the UK as they were clinically extremely vulnerable.

If you read that, you may get a more realistic idea than one based solely on your prejudice and pre-conceptions.

50 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Everyone is fundamentally Selfish with Limited tolerance.

Some more than others, evidently.

[Fundok]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Thanks but what did this report say about the std. cloth masks worn by 99%  ?

They tested those medical masks. A plain clothes mask is much less effective than those medical masks which are already much less effective than FFP2/KN95 masks.

[Fundok]

Indeed. 

[Fundok]

4 hours ago, Stonker said:

I'm not "sorry" any more, I'm just bored of what has now become, quite frankly, just inexcusable ignorance.

That may be the case in Switzerland, or Germany, or the USA but it isn't the case here in Thailand.

Here masks are mandated to protect others - end of story, as that's not only the policy but why so many Thais feel so strongly about it and are so sick of foreigners visibly and openly disrespecting and not considering those around them by not masking up.

If you want to give yourself extra protection by wearing a better quality mask that's up to you, but that isn't what the mask mandate is for here and it never has been.

The point I am trying to make (and which seems to be difficult to understand) is that it really depends on the type of mask and they way it is worn to make a mask mandate effective. If you are outside and no one who is infected comes close to you for 5+ minutes you might as well not wear a mask and won't get infected. But if you are sitting close together i.e. in a bar or restaurant w/o a mask (as is permissible) you will surely get infected. And wearing those medical masks lures you in a wrong sense of being protected/protecting others, albeit still being better than wearing a plain cloth mask or no mask. In summary: the mandate as it is designed right now, w/o any distinction regarding the type of mask, is a toothless tiger. It is beyond me why you fiercly defend something that by design is not the game changer. I agree that the infection numbers in Thailand are better than elsewhere but I seriously doubt that this is mainly attributable to the mask mandate. But hey, it's a free world, if you believe that the mandate has been effective and any type of mask will do the trick then so be it.

[Fundok]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Good post but sticking with my “ insufficient benefit “ conclusion….

Mate, hardly anyone I have seen in TH is wearing those masks. They are expensive and uncomfortable. FFP2/KN95 masks are available in the shops, but predominantly those medical masks are sold. With those, I agree, the protection is compromised and the gained benefit is indeed questionable.

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, Transam said:

Are you our first medical professional on this thread....? 

Mask wearing is more political than medical. Massive restriction for perhaps insufficient medical benefit. Opinion / judgement call.

[Stonker]

7 hours ago, Fundok said:

The point I am trying to make (and which seems to be difficult to understand) is that it really depends on the type of mask and they way it is worn to make a mask mandate effective. If you are outside and no one who is infected comes close to you for 5+ minutes you might as well not wear a mask and won't get infected. But if you are sitting close together i.e. in a bar or restaurant w/o a mask (as is permissible) you will surely get infected. And wearing those medical masks lures you in a wrong sense of being protected/protecting others, albeit still being better than wearing a plain cloth mask or no mask. In summary: the mandate as it is designed right now, w/o any distinction regarding the type of mask, is a toothless tiger. It is beyond me why you fiercly defend something that by design is not the game changer. I agree that the infection numbers in Thailand are better than elsewhere but I seriously doubt that this is mainly attributable to the mask mandate. But hey, it's a free world, if you believe that the mandate has been effective and any type of mask will do the trick then so be it.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but the point I'm trying to make is that although I've given several scientific studies from the most reputable and reliable sources possible to support my view, you've given NONE - but you still insist that it's just my view, that it's "a toothless tiger" and that it's beyond you why I'm "fiercely defend sometying that by design is not the game changer" even though literally every study on mask wearing "as a precaution against spreading Covid-19", as distinct from protecting the wearer says that it IS a game changer.

Yours are a perfect example of what @Smithydog described as 'unsupported posts that pose a significant risk of members being mislead' - although I hope that he doesn' remove them and this, as otherwise I'll have been wasting my time showing how badly wrong you are according to all the scientific evidence.

These are just a selection of articles and studies confirming that mask wearing HAS been a "game changer", with quoted extracts (my bold), all confirming that everything you've said on the subject is completely wrong and badly misleading.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776536

"Community mask wearing substantially reduces transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in 2 ways. First, masks prevent infected persons from exposing others to SARS-CoV-2 by blocking exhalation of virus-containing droplets into the air (termed source control). This aspect of mask wearing is especially important because it is estimated that at least 50% or more of transmissions are from persons who never develop symptoms or those who are in the presymptomatic phase of COVID-19 illness.1 In recent laboratory experiments, multilayer cloth masks were more effective than single-layer masks, blocking as much as 50% to 70% of exhaled small droplets and particles. In some cases, cloth masks have performed similar to surgical or procedure masks for source control. Second, masks protect uninfected wearers. Masks form a barrier to large respiratory droplets that could land on exposed mucous membranes of the eye, nose, and mouth. Masks can also partially filter out small droplets and particles from inhaled air. Multiple layers of fabric and fabrics with higher thread counts improve filtration. However, the observed effectiveness of cloth masks to protect the wearer is lower than their effectiveness for source control, and the filtration capacity of cloth masks can be highly dependent on design, fit, and materials used."

https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj-2021-068302

"Results. 72 studies met the inclusion criteria, of which 35 evaluated individual public health measures and 37 assessed multiple public health measures as a “package of interventions.” Eight of 35 studies were included in the meta-analysis, which indicated a reduction in incidence of covid-19 associated with handwashing (relative risk 0.47, 95% confidence interval 0.19 to 1.12, I2=12%), mask wearing (0.47, 0.29 to 0.75, I2=84%), and physical distancing (0.75, 0.59 to 0.95, I2=87%). Owing to heterogeneity of the studies, meta-analysis was not possible for the outcomes of quarantine and isolation, universal lockdowns, and closures of borders, schools, and workplaces. The effects of these interventions were synthesised descriptively."

That's an 84% reduction in incidence of Covid due to mask wearing. ... and you don't think an 84% reduction is a game-changer???

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7883189/

" A conclusion can be reached based on the current studies: correctly wearing masks of all kinds, despite their different designs, functions and effectiveness, will to a large degree reduce the overall risks of COVID‐19 infection and enhance general protection from coronavirus."

The PNAS and NCBI in the US and the BMJ in the UK are probably the most respected medical publications in the world.

https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/27/face-masks

"Out of the 191 schools that experienced an outbreak between July 15 and August 31, 59.2% did not have a mask mandate in place. In comparison, 8.4% of the schools that had a mask mandate in place at the start of the school year experienced an outbreak, the researchers found.

A second CDC study examined 520 counties throughout the United States and found that counties where school mask mandates were in effect saw smaller increases of pediatric Covid-19 case rates than other counties.

Specifically, from one to seven days before the start of school to seven to 13 days after the start of school, counties with school mask mandates saw an average increase of 16.32 Covid-19 cases per 100,000 children. Other counties, meanwhile, experienced an average increase of 34.85 cases per 100,000 children."

 

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

 

Other studies just on the comparative protection given by masks also contradict whay you're saying, such as your claim that " And wearing those medical masks lures you in a wrong sense of being protected/protecting others,"

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210907/masks-limit-covid-spread-study

"One key finding of the study, for example, is that wearing a mask doesn't lead people to abandon social distancing, something public health officials had feared might happen if masks gave people a false sense of security."

That study was of 340,000 people in Bangladesh so extensive.

 

As 'nature' put it:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

"The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough? "

 

[Stonker]

48 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Mask wearing is more political than medical. Massive restriction for perhaps insufficient medical benefit. Opinion / judgement call.

See above.

"The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough? "

[oldschooler]

48 minutes ago, Stonker said:

See above.

"The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough? "

Now persuaded in simple absolute terms (finally) by your last post. Thanks for expanding my Covid knowledge StonkerPoints made by others here about mask type / wearing also well received.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

Now persuaded in simple absolute terms (finally) by your last post. Thanks for expanding my Covid knowledge StonkerPoints made by others here about mask type / wearing also well received.

Are you sure you're in the right forum ?

I mean ... well ... courtesy, and allowing  yourself to have an open mind ... 

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, Transam said:

But do you wear a mask when out, or are you going to put 20,000bht to one side, just in case........

1000 baht 1st offense. Wise to wear masks outside to avoid potential for unnecessary trouble or loss of face, etc.

[DiJoDavO]

22 hours ago, Stonker said:

If other people are as close to your mask as your glasses you'd have a fair point.

I doubt many are.

So... It makes no sense that masks actually help. Only to block sneezes and coughs. There you go, we might agree for once. 

[f_udf]

For normal breathing, COVID flows through the mask like mosquitos through a chain link fence.

[satpete]

mask in open air is the most crazy rule,

may help in very crowded situations or inside

[Stonker]

11 hours ago, DiJoDavO said:

So... It makes no sense that masks actually help. Only to block sneezes and coughs. There you go, we might agree for once. 

No, we don't agree at all on this.

As all the relevant recognised studies show, a few of which I've linked to and quoted, masks are very effective at reducing transmission - NOT only "sneezes and coughs".

[DiJoDavO]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

No, we don't agree at all on this.

As all the relevant recognised studies show, a few of which I've linked to and quoted, masks are very effective at reducing transmission - NOT only "sneezes and coughs".

Genius, when is it most likely to spread something? Sneezing and coughing, where whatever is in your nose and mouth can be just flying around. Maybe speaking sometimes too if you spit while talking. 

Btw all these studies.... Haven't all these studies predicted that a huge aount of the world population would die from this? I'd rather just observe what's really going on, instead of blindly follow studies and numbers. 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

Genius, when is it most likely to spread something? Sneezing and coughing, where whatever is in your nose and mouth can be just flying around. Maybe speaking sometimes too if you spit while talking.

But neither of us were talking about when it was "most likely".

What you wrote was that "It makes no sense that masks actually help. Only to block sneezes and coughs." which according to all the scientific evidence (and I mean 'ALL') is completely untrue.

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

Genius, when is it most likely to spread something? Sneezing and coughing, where whatever is in your nose and mouth can be just flying around. Maybe speaking sometimes too if you spit while talking. 

Btw all these studies.... Haven't all these studies predicted that a huge aount of the world population would die from this? 

No, none of them.

Not one.

Not just none of the studies I've referred to, but no respected or peer reviewed studies at all.

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

 I'd rather just observe what's really going on, instead of blindly follow studies and numbers. 

Nobody's suggesting you follow the numbers and studies "blindly" - just suggesting that if all you go by is personal observation then you don't really have a clue what's going on beyond that.

[billywillyjones]

Masks do little or nothing to prevent the spread.  People should be more worried about transmission through money etc.  These crazy covid measures have caused far more harm than good.  

 

https://mises.org/wire/john-hopkins-study-lockdowns-only-reduce-mortality-02

[ExpatPattaya]

2 minutes ago, billywillyjones said:

Masks do little or nothing to prevent the spread.  People should be more worried about transmission through money etc.  These crazy covid measures have caused far more harm than good.  

https://mises.org/wire/john-hopkins-study-lockdowns-only-reduce-mortality-02

Yet Harvard Medical School begs to differ, Masks save lives and reduce infection.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/masks-save-lives-heres-what-you-need-to-know-2020111921466

 

[billywillyjones]

41 minutes ago, ExpatPattaya said:

Yet Harvard Medical School begs to differ, Masks save lives and reduce infection.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/masks-save-lives-heres-what-you-need-to-know-2020111921466

Yeah I guess that explains why everywhere Omicron is running rampant people are wearing masks.  Some times we just need to open our eyes and use common sense. 

[mcambl61]

1 minute ago, billywillyjones said:

Yeah I guess that explains why everywhere Omicron is running rampant people are wearing masks.  Some times we just need to open our eyes and use common sense. 

Spot on the money assessment right there. 

 

But then the narrative is more important to a certain sector of the world than reality and common sense is.