News Forum - Red tape remains for foreign retirees in Thailand

[Marc26]

3 minutes ago, Vince said:

Your country (and it doesn't matter which, really) may have a better system vis-a-vis Thailand for some particular process. Agree 100%. 

But I asked if your country was without a corrupt, inefficient, or incompetent bureaucracy - in any process? 

If your country is % free of any corruption, incompetence, or inefficiency in all of its bureaucracies, the. I stand corrected. My apologies. 

The thread is about Immigration processes 

 

I am comparing like for like and applying for Visas in US/Canada are pretty straight forward

 

Sometimes time consuming but straight forward 

[Vince]

4 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

The thread is about Immigration processes 

I am comparing like for like and applying for Visas in US/Canada are pretty straight forward

Sometimes time consuming but straight forward 

Noted, your country - like all counties - has a corrupt, incompetent, and inefficient bureaucracy - but when comparing it's immigration bureaucracy it is superior to Thailand, in your opinion.

That's a fair opinion, and seems likely true.  

We agree! :-) 

[Marc26]

24 minutes ago, Vince said:

Noted, your country - like all counties - has a corrupt, incompetent, and inefficient bureaucracy - but when comparing it's immigration bureaucracy it is superior to Thailand, in your opinion.

That's a fair opinion, and seems likely true.  

We agree! :-) 

Not really an opinion 

 

Just factual from actual experience dealing with 2 countries numerous times 

[Freeduhdumb]

What are the barriers to a more inclusive PR?

"Be The Change You Wish To See In The World."

The solution is getting the work that needs to be done to offer a more inclusive Permanent Residency (PR) "retirement" status within Thailand. 

[Vince]

4 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Not really an opinion 

Just factual from actual experience dealing with 2 countries numerous times 

Understood. 

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

Up to you, but for most of us that's a bit weird as we simply don't need or want to pay an agent whom you're then obliged to continue paying indefinitely unless you leave, die, or start again from scratch.

Personally getting tied to an agent is the last thing I'd do, but if you're happy with that, good luck.

Yeah It feels “weird” that I don’t need to tolerate any direct Immy bs, or suffer anxiety from them ….oh and have full control over my funds. There is no “obligation” involved. Not all IO are as cooperative as yours. Touristy Visa stuff I have handled direct (as simple & easy and using Agent for that or DLT or Municipal would be embarrassing actually) but not Long Stay, except a 12 month Embassy Retirement Visa once …… way too much work.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

Yeah It feels “weird” that I don’t need to tolerate any direct Immy bs, or suffer anxiety from them ….oh and have full control over my funds. There is no “obligation” involved. Not all IO are as cooperative as yours. Touristy Visa stuff I have handled direct (as simple & easy and using Agent for that or DLT or Municipal would be embarrassing actually) but not Long Stay, except a 12 month Embassy Retirement Visa once …… way too much work.

Sorry, but there is an "obligation". As with all agents who do something illegal without the correct documentation (far from all do), once you use them for any visa or extension that has to be repeated when it expires it's impossible for you to go to another agent or to do it yourself as you don't have matching paperwork - if you try to, you will simply incriminate yourself so you have no option but to either stay with them and continue paying or to leave and start the whole process again if you can.

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing as that's a judgement call, but you should understand the pros and cons.

I'm sorry to say that you apparently don't.

[Marc26]

59 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, but there is an "obligation". As with all agents who do something illegal without the correct documentation (far from all do), once you use them for any visa or extension that has to be repeated when it expires it's impossible for you to go to another agent or to do it yourself as you don't have matching paperwork - if you try to, you will simply incriminate yourself so you have no option but to either stay with them and continue paying or to leave and start the whole process again if you can.

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing as that's a judgement call, but you should understand the pros and cons.

I'm sorry to say that you apparently don't.

I think a lot of agents are just using their connection to get things done quicker

 

But in a lot of cases the process is still fine legitimately, no?

 

I only used an agent once, to handle my marriage and it was well worth it 

They handled all the paperwork needed, went to Foreign Affairs for me and we went to the Amphur seemingly pretty quickly 

 

Well worth the extra I paid them.

 

Now that isn't something I need to revisit though 

[Vince]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, but there is an "obligation". As with all agents who do something illegal without the correct documentation (far from all do), once you use them for any visa or extension that has to be repeated when it expires it's impossible for you to go to another agent or to do it yourself as you don't have matching paperwork - if you try to, you will simply incriminate yourself so you have no option but to either stay with them and continue paying or to leave and start the whole process again if you can.

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing as that's a judgement call, but you should understand the pros and cons.

I'm sorry to say that you apparently don't.

"As with all agents who do something illegal without the correct documentation (far from all do), once you use them for any visa or extension that has to be repeated when it expires it's impossible for you to go to another agent or to do it yourself as you don't have matching paperwork"

This may be the single best argument I've read for not hiring an agent and doing it yourself. 

Thank you! 

[Stonker]

6 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

I think a lot of agents are just using their connection to get things done quicker

But in a lot of cases the process is still fine legitimately, no?

I only used an agent once, to handle my marriage and it was well worth it 

They handled all the paperwork needed, went to Foreign Affairs for me and we went to the Amphur seemingly pretty quickly 

Well worth the extra I paid them.

Now that isn't something I need to revisit though 

Absolutely - for many it's just to guide you through the process / hold your hand, etc, and I'll probably use an agent for my passport renewal to save a trip or two to Bangkok.

Where they're producing false documentation for you, or getting an extension or visa with no documentation, that's very different though - particularly if it's repeated or needed the following year or for another extension.  I wouldn't do that under any circumstances unless I didn't have the money and had no option - it's just too big a risk for little reason.

[Stonker]

10 minutes ago, Vince said:

"As with all agents who do something illegal without the correct documentation (far from all do), once you use them for any visa or extension that has to be repeated when it expires it's impossible for you to go to another agent or to do it yourself as you don't have matching paperwork"

This may be the single best argument I've read for not hiring an agent and doing it yourself. 

Thank you! 

As I said to @Marc26 above, it depends on the circumstances - sometimes there are very good reasons to use an agent and it can save you not just time but money, directly and indirectly.

Other times ..... .

[Vince]

Just now, Stonker said:

As I said to @Marc26 above, it depends on the circumstances - sometimes there are very good reasons to use am agent and it can save you not just time but money, directly and indirectly.

Other times ..... .

Understood.

If I use an agent how do I know there are no 'grey areas' that won't come back to haunt me on renewal?

Do I review and audit all of their work?

Have a trusted third party check it? 

[Marc26]

11 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Absolutely - for many it's just to guide you through the process / hold your hand, etc, and I'll probably use an agent for my passport renewal to save a trip or two to Bangkok.

Where they're producing false documentation for you, or getting an extension or visa with no documentation, that's very different though - particularly if it's repeated or needed the following year or for another extension.  I wouldn't do that under any circumstances unless I didn't have the money and had no option - it's just too big a risk for little reason.

Ok understand and agree I'd stay well clear of anything dodgy 

 

I initially blew off the visa agent when he approached me outside the US embassy 

 

But I believe I paid him 5k, maybe even 8k

And they were a major help

Spent all day getting everything done, driving us everywhere

 

The office was top notch with the girls getting all the paperwork in order

 

I was mighty impressed and whatever I paid them, I was very satisfied with it 

[oldschooler]

8 hours ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, but there is an "obligation". As with all agents who do something illegal without the correct documentation (far from all do), once you use them for any visa or extension that has to be repeated when it expires it's impossible for you to go to another agent or to do it yourself as you don't have matching paperwork - if you try to, you will simply incriminate yourself so you have no option but to either stay with them and continue paying or to leave and start the whole process again if you can.

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing as that's a judgement call, but you should understand the pros and cons.

I'm sorry to say that you apparently don't.

Managed well enough for 17 years ….on my terms. You assume basis of continuous retirement arrangements. Have used a mixture of being outside country / embassy Long stay visas/ tourist visas/ Ed visa / Covid Extention. All Imm. passport stamps are “ legal” if on Imm. computer (separate check). Six month Tourist Visa for 100 quid was best. Zero need then for any local Imm. BS.or Agents.

[oldschooler]

Agents highly convenient I see for logistical purposes, especially during pandemics ! For when you live far from source Agency or not easily mobile or want smooth easy process.
 

Passport Renewals, Driving License , House Books,Visa Extns., Insurances. Personally do all this stuff myself ( except Insurances & last resort  local Imm. retirement). Even with an ED Visa, School acts as Sponsor / Agent. 
Good Insurance Broker absolutely vital. 

[LoongFred]

7 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Ok understand and agree I'd stay well clear of anything dodgy 

I initially blew off the visa agent when he approached me outside the US embassy 

But I believe I paid him 5k, maybe even 8k

And they were a major help

Spent all day getting everything done, driving us everywhere

The office was top notch with the girls getting all the paperwork in order

I was mighty impressed and whatever I paid them, I was very satisfied with it 

What are you talking about. The US passport renewal was a breeze and only took a few minutes at the US counselate in Chiang Mai. I followed the directions on the website. As for visa extensions for a Non O based on retirement, it's the same. I fill out the paperwork TM 7 and get the bank letter and statement. Never a problem.  Those that have problems have inadequate money in the bank or can't handle simple paperwork. If I have questions I ask the IO and they are always helpful. Of course I show respect and speak Thai, but not more than in other business encounters. 

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Managed well enough for 17 years ….on my terms. You assume basis of continuous retirement arrangements. Have used a mixture of being outside country / embassy Long stay visas/ tourist visas/ Ed visa / Covid Extention. All Imm. passport stamps are “ legal” if on Imm. computer (separate check). Six month Tourist Visa for 100 quid was best. Zero need then for any local Imm. BS.or Agents.

As I said, if you're happy with the arrangement then 'fine', but I doubt most retirees / marrieds here could be bothered with "a mixture of being outside country / embassy Long stay visas/ tourist visas/ Ed visa / Covid Extention" when all those of us that are prepared to put up with the "local Imm BS" need to do is pay our 1,900 baht a year and spend maybe 20 minutes at the bank and half an hour at immigration once a year.

Edit:

and if the paperwork submitted is later found not to be correct, as it would be if you tried to re-extend a marriage / retirement extension that your particular agent had done for you without valid paperwork, without him doing the same for you again, then it would no longer be "legal" and you'd be liable to be deported and blacklisted indefinitely.

But if you're happy taking that risk and think it's worth it so you can avoid "local Imm BS" and do things "on your terms" then 'fine' - happy for you.

 

[Richard61]

On 1/24/2022 at 12:12 PM, Peabody1953 said:

 Incompetence, corruption  and favoritism

Congratulations, you've just crafted TAT's new slogan!

[LoongFred]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:08 PM, MikeW said:

So why did I have to go to immigration turn in paperwork and pay them money to get a letter giving me permission to buy or sell a car and then another one to give the land transportation office to get a license 

You are asking for a residency certificate so as to prove your address. You can also get one from the US  consulate for $50 but you need an appointment and show up in person. Your choice, but Thai immigration is easier. You don't seem to understand and think more positively.