News Forum - Thailand reports second Omicron-related death, Covid fatality toll on a downward slope

[Thaiger]

The second death related to the Omicron Covid-19 variant in Thailand was reported today by the Centre for Covid-19 Situation Administration. Both deaths were elderly women with serious pre-existing health conditions who contracted the virus from infected family members. While cases involving the highly transmissble Omicron variant are on the rise in Thailand, the strain is said to be less severe and the country’s Covid-related death toll has been on a downward slope, hitting a nine-month low of nine fatalities recorded yesterday. The second Omicron-related death was an 84 year old woman with terminal stage lung cancer in the Isaan […]

The story Thailand reports second Omicron-related death, Covid fatality toll on a downward slope as seen on Thaiger News.

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[Robosibbo]

Not nice for the people concerned, but 2 80+ year olds dying, is that really a reason to shut down a countr?????

[Graham]

More deaths in last 2 weeks through suicide alone in Pattaya than Covid but the highly intelligent government would rather shut the country down again. 

TIT.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Robosibbo said:

Not nice for the people concerned, but 2 80+ year olds dying, is that really a reason to shut down a countr?????

No, hardly a reason to "shut down a country",  but i) the country isn't "shut down", and ii) if it were it wouldn't be because of "2 80+ year olds dying".

[longwood50]

2 hours ago, Thaiger said:

Both deaths were elderly women with serious pre-existing health conditions who contracted the virus from infected family members.

There is a huge difference from dying "from covid" versus "with covid"  These people were elderly with serious pre_-existing health conditions.  If they caught the flu, diarrhea, food positioning, or a bacterial infection they would also likely have died as their body was unable to fight off virus because of their health already being compromised. 

I might be in a car accident with severe head injuries and have covid.  Does that mean I died from covid or that covid complicated my recovery?  Maybe.  

If we reported deaths from complicating health conditions other than Covid the same way we should be far more concerned over Sepsis than Covid. 

Data from 2017 show that sepsis affected 49 million people and was linked to approximately 11 million deaths worldwide—roughly 20% of annual global deaths

 

[BlueSphinx]

 

First Omicron victim in Thailand: a double Pfizer-vaxxed, bed-ridden 86 year old woman who suffered from Alzheimer’s disease.  Second Omicron victim in Thailand: a home-isolated 84 year old woman with terminal stage lung cancer.

So obviously we need to vaccinate all children with double doses to end the pandemic!  A healthy young 86 year old dying with covid is very unusual...

And with this second fatality of an even younger lady (84 years) we need to shut down the whole country IMMEDIATELY! 

Note: I am currently soliciting for a job as personal assistant of dr Yong Poovorawan at the Centre of Excellence in Clinical Virolocy at the Chulalongkorn University Faculty of Medicine, and demonstrating my Gung Ho spirit will provide me some credit...

 

 

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Graham said:

More deaths in last 2 weeks through suicide alone in Pattaya than Covid but the highly intelligent government would rather shut the country down again. 

TIT.

The country isn't "shut down".

I'd hate to think you were posting misinformation here, so do you have any evidence for that?

Such as links showing how many died from Covid in Pattaya in the last two weeks and how many from suicide?

Country-wide, 200 died from Covid in the last two weeks which is higher than the peak suicide rate last year, which was just over 20% up from normal so that seems unlikely - and even in the unlikely event it were true, there would still have been over five times as many deaths from Covid as there were additional suicides.

[Stonker]

57 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

There is a huge difference from dying "from covid" versus "with covid"  

No, there is no "huge difference" and this is blatant misinformation.

Deaths in Thailand are not reported as "with Covid" but as "Covid related", making your point moot.

In the UK, where this argument stems from, there is no "huge difference" as although all the deaths are still reported by politicians as "with Covid" whether they are "from Covid" or not,  they're now reported by the UKHSA who are responsible for the figures simply as "Covid deaths" and / or "Omicron deaths" (when broken down by variant).

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-health-security-agency/about/statistics

57 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

If they caught the flu, diarrhea, food positioning, or a bacterial infection they would also likely have died as their body was unable to fight off virus because of their health already being compromised. 

But they didn't - they died when they did because they caught Covid.

That isn't to suggest that most others who catch Covid / Omicron are also as likely to die - just that your point is misleading, at best.

[Stonker]

52 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

If we reported deaths from complicating health conditions other than Covid the same way we should be far more concerned over Sepsis than Covid. 

Data from 2017 show that sepsis affected 49 million people and was linked to approximately 11 million deaths worldwide—roughly 20% of annual global deaths

Deaths from other "complicating health conditions" ARE reported in exactly the same way as Covid in every country I'm aware of - Thailand, the US, UK, Aus, across Europe, etc.

That's how we know how many deaths are related to those other issues, such as sepsis.

[Wormwood]

6 hours ago, Stonker said:

No, there is no "huge difference" and this is blatant misinformation.

Deaths in Thailand are not reported as "with Covid" but as "Covid related", making your point moot.

In the UK, where this argument stems from, there is no "huge difference" as although all the deaths are still reported by politicians as "with Covid" whether they are "from Covid" or not,  they're now reported by the UKHSA who are responsible for the figures simply as "Covid deaths" and / or "Omicron deaths" (when broken down by variant).

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-health-security-agency/about/statistics

But they didn't - they died when they did because they caught Covid.

That isn't to suggest that most others who catch Covid / Omicron are also as likely to die - just that your point is misleading, at best.

Sorry just because you label something “misinformation “ doesn’t make your labeling true. Death from and death with are vastly different. It doesn’t matter if you like that fact or not. Many have died with something that was not the underline cause of their death. Covid is no different. That was the point and it seems you missed it. Take a sober look at ALL the facts and stop spinning for your partisan perspective.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Wormwood said:

Sorry just because you label something “misinformation “ doesn’t make your labeling true.

Sorry, but it very clearly does in this case.

In Thailand the terms "died with" and "died from" aren't used in official reports / stats so the whole point here is meaningless.

It's pure smoke and mirrors - misinformation.

In the UK, for example, all Covid deaths in government reports / announcements are labelled "with", none "from", so it's literally impossible for there to be a "huge difference" when only the one term is used.

You can't have a "huge difference" between two terms when you only use one to cover both!

As far as official reporting is concerned, the UKHSA uses neither term but only refers to "Covid deaths" or "Omicron deaths" as the link very clearly shows, to avoid this pointless debate.

1 hour ago, Wormwood said:

Death from and death with are vastly different. It doesn’t matter if you like that fact or not.

Not if all "deaths from" and "deaths with" are  ALL  called "death with"!!!

How can they be "vastly different" when they're both called the same thing - "deaths with"?

1 hour ago, Wormwood said:

Many have died with something that was not the underline cause of their death. Covid is no different.

Arguably "many" may have, but please give any verifiable, definitive, authoritative link that shows that the figures of those dying when they did as a result of being infected by Covid, widely published and generally accepted, have been distorted by anything more than a small fraction of a percent.

Any at all.

1 hour ago, Wormwood said:

That was the point and it seems you missed it.

No, I didn't "miss" it at all.

It's at best irrelevant as Thailand doesn't differentiate between or use the terms "from" and "with", and at worst totally untrue as it's suggesting that nobody in the UK or anywhere else that uses "with" in a similar way died "from" Covid which is clearly absurdly untrue.

1 hour ago, Wormwood said:

Take a sober look at ALL the facts and stop spinning for your partisan perspective.

I suggest you follow your own advice, as you clearly don't know any of the relevant "facts", let alone "ALL" of them:

Fact 1. Thailand doesn't use "from" or "with", so it's misinformation to suggest they do.

Fact 2. Where countries such as the UK only use the one term ("with") rather than both ("with" and "from") to cover those dying both with and from Covid, there's clearly no "huge difference" as only the one term is used for all cases. Suggesting there's any different meaning when only one term is used to cover both is, again, misinformation.

Do some homework and try to think the point through, and you might see that what I've posted isn't "perspective" or opinion, "partisan" or otherwise but simple fact even if you prefer to ignore it or to paint it as something else.

[Vince]

10 hours ago, Robosibbo said:

Not nice for the people concerned, but 2 80+ year olds dying, is that really a reason to shut down a countr?????

The restrictions were from the Delta variant. The sandbox is still open, so the country isn't shut down (remember when it was repatriation of nationals and charters only?). 

Relax and give it some time. Lots of people want Thailand to reopen but too many critics are waiting to pounce if it doesn't go smoothly. 

Be patient! 2022 is gonna be a great year :-) 

[Vince]

9 hours ago, Graham said:

More deaths in last 2 weeks through suicide alone in Pattaya than Covid but the highly intelligent government would rather shut the country down again. 

TIT.

That's not exactly fair. And every country is grappling on the right response. Give it time. As the numbers register and medical opinions solidify they'll do the right thing. 

Expect good news!

[Vince]

8 hours ago, longwood50 said:

There is a huge difference from dying "from covid" versus "with covid"  These people were elderly with serious pre_-existing health conditions.  If they caught the flu, diarrhea, food positioning, or a bacterial infection they would also likely have died as their body was unable to fight off virus because of their health already being compromised. 

I might be in a car accident with severe head injuries and have covid.  Does that mean I died from covid or that covid complicated my recovery?  Maybe.  

If we reported deaths from complicating health conditions other than Covid the same way we should be far more concerned over Sepsis than Covid. 

Data from 2017 show that sepsis affected 49 million people and was linked to approximately 11 million deaths worldwide—roughly 20% of annual global deaths

Excellent points but there's as much at play with perceptions as the reality of correct cause of death. 

Things are moving in the right direction. 2022 is going to be amazing :-) 

[Stonker]

17 minutes ago, Vince said:

The restrictions were from the Delta variant. The sandbox is still open, so the country isn't shut down (remember when it was repatriation of nationals and charters only?). 

Relax and give it some time. Lots of people want Thailand to reopen but too many critics are waiting to pounce if it doesn't go smoothly. 

Be patient! 2022 is gonna be a great year :-) 

Even if the borders are closed to tourists, the country isn't "shut down" .

[Stonker]

30 minutes ago, Vince said:

Excellent points but there's as much at play with perceptions as the reality of correct cause of death. 

How can they be "excellent points" when in those countries that refer to deaths "with Covid" that also includes all deaths "from Covid" ?

It's simply an attempt to downplay the number of deaths where Covid was a factor, based on nothing more than misinformation and misdirection.

If it wasn't for Covid, none bar a tiny fraction of a percent of those deaths announced as "with Covid", in some countries, would have happened when they did.

That isn't "perception", it's simple fact.

[Vince]

18 minutes ago, Stonker said:

How can they be "excellent points" when in those countries that refer to deaths "with Covid" that also includes all deaths "from Covid" ?

It's simply an attempt to downplay the number of deaths where Covid was a factor, based on nothing more than misinformation and misdirection.

If it wasn't for Covid, none bar a tiny fraction of a percent of those deaths announced as "with Covid", in some countries, would have happened when they did.

That isn't "perception", it's simple fact.

Facts must be perceived, no? 

And facts, are the basis of possible multiple analyses - maybe conflicting ones. 

A fact is with analysis and from it, it forms perception :-) 

 

[Rangers]

So basically just like every other "omicron death" then, they didn't actually die because of Omicron. 

 

The end is near, good times are coming. 

[Vince]

10 minutes ago, Rangers said:

So basically just like every other "omicron death" then, they didn't actually die because of Omicron. 

The end is near, good times are coming. 

Indeed, well mostly. The vast majority appear with so called "underlying conditions" - impaired immune systems, obesity, old age, etc. "Death from obesity, triggered by COVID" might be a wake up call for many. 

But there were cases of health care workers - relatively young and healthy - who died from covid. In China and New York I recall reading of this in the early outbreaks.

My guess is that they were massively infected, possibly repeatedly, by this novel coronavirus, and they simply couldn't recover. 

 

[Wormwood]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, but it very clearly does in this case.

In Thailand the terms "died with" and "died from" aren't used in official reports / stats so the whole point here is meaningless.

It's pure smoke and mirrors - misinformation.

In the UK, for example, all Covid deaths in government reports / announcements are labelled "with", none "from", so it's literally impossible for there to be a "huge difference" when only the one term is used.

You can't have a "huge difference" between two terms when you only use one to cover both!

As far as official reporting is concerned, the UKHSA uses neither term but only refers to "Covid deaths" or "Omicron deaths" as the link very clearly shows, to avoid this pointless debate.

Not if all "deaths from" and "deaths with" are  ALL  called "death with"!!!

How can they be "vastly different" when they're both called the same thing - "deaths with"?

Arguably "many" may have, but please give any verifiable, definitive, authoritative link that shows that the figures of those dying when they did as a result of being infected by Covid, widely published and generally accepted, have been distorted by anything more than a small fraction of a percent.

Any at all.

No, I didn't "miss" it at all.

It's at best irrelevant as Thailand doesn't differentiate between or use the terms "from" and "with", and at worst totally untrue as it's suggesting that nobody in the UK or anywhere else that uses "with" in a similar way died "from" Covid which is clearly absurdly untrue.

I suggest you follow your own advice, as you clearly don't know any of the relevant "facts", let alone "ALL" of them:

Fact 1. Thailand doesn't use "from" or "with", so it's misinformation to suggest they do.

Fact 2. Where countries such as the UK only use the one term ("with") rather than both ("with" and "from") to cover those dying both with and from Covid, there's clearly no "huge difference" as only the one term is used for all cases. Suggesting there's any different meaning when only one term is used to cover both is, again, misinformation.

Do some homework and try to think the point through, and you might see that what I've posted isn't "perspective" or opinion, "partisan" or otherwise but simple fact even if you prefer to ignore it or to paint it as something else.

Ok I now understand the issue a little clearer and the point that you are trying to make. My apologies for the rather rude comment I made prior. 
let me say this though. The fundamental difference as I see it is this. You are looking for an official use of specific terms to differentiate between the two ideas of “from” or “with”. And to your point there are few official reports detailing this difference.

However, I was using the concepts of “from” or “with” from a more logical or definitional manner. (Not saying your point lacked a logical line of reason). What I mean is that terms determine meaning. For example, if I die with a bullet in my pocket it would mean that I died “with” a bullet not “from” the bullet. The same can be said of Covid. Since most cases of Covid are not fatal, therefore it follows logically that while sick with Covid one could die from another cause. 
A person could have a heart attack and die while having Covid. And the heart attack be unrelated to Covid. This would be a case of death with Covid not from Covid. 
Back to your point, from an official perspective the death would probably be reported in one of two ways. Death from/with Covid, or death from heart attack with no mention of Covid. 
Lastly, my use of ALL was inappropriate. I would have been better to say to study both sides of the issue. 
I hope that this time I was more clear in my response. I cannot speak to what was meant in the original post as I did not post it. But this is how I see the issue. 
Again my apologies for shooting off the way I did. 

[Rain]

14 hours ago, Stonker said:

Even if the borders are closed to tourists, the country isn't "shut down" .

Except for those that still consider the deluded ideals that Thailand can't exist without tourism. 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Smithydog
Sensitive word to some removed.

[Stonker]

5 hours ago, Wormwood said:

Ok I now understand the issue a little clearer and the point that you are trying to make. My apologies for the rather rude comment I made prior. 
let me say this though. The fundamental difference as I see it is this. You are looking for an official use of specific terms to differentiate between the two ideas of “from” or “with”. And to your point there are few official reports detailing this difference.

However, I was using the concepts of “from” or “with” from a more logical or definitional manner. (Not saying your point lacked a logical line of reason). What I mean is that terms determine meaning. For example, if I die with a bullet in my pocket it would mean that I died “with” a bullet not “from” the bullet. The same can be said of Covid. Since most cases of Covid are not fatal, therefore it follows logically that while sick with Covid one could die from another cause. 
A person could have a heart attack and die while having Covid. And the heart attack be unrelated to Covid. This would be a case of death with Covid not from Covid. 
Back to your point, from an official perspective the death would probably be reported in one of two ways. Death from/with Covid, or death from heart attack with no mention of Covid. 
Lastly, my use of ALL was inappropriate. I would have been better to say to study both sides of the issue. 
I hope that this time I was more clear in my response. I cannot speak to what was meant in the original post as I did not post it. But this is how I see the issue. 
Again my apologies for shooting off the way I did. 

No apologies necessary at all, but they're a pleasant surprise here so thank you.

I understand your point on there normally being a difference between "with" and "from" but my point is that the difference doesn't exist either here or where "with" is used as an umbrella term.

We were evidently talking at cross purposes.

I'm not really looking for official use of "with" or "from" but highlighting that it's just a distraction here used to falsely suggest the number of deaths are inflated.

The UK government policy is to call them all "with", supposedly to give patient confidentiality but in my view for political reasons to try to play down the numbers, and some of the media echo that while others just say 'from' or 'Covid deaths', as the UKHSA does (and they should know!).

Here they're "Covid related", both in Thai and English, which I think is more than reasonable making the whole argument misinformation.

[longwood50]

16 hours ago, Vince said:

Excellent points but there's as much at play with perceptions as the reality of correct cause of death. 

The vast majority of deaths are when the body is compromised and something is introduced to worsen their effects.  A person with a heart problem catches pneumonia.  Did they did from pneumonia or the fact they had a pre existing heart condition.  A person gets into a car accident and is badly injured, they contract a sepsis infection.  Did they die from the car accident or sepsis.  

The reality is that catching covid is just another on the list of complications that can cause those with pre-existing conditions to succumb to their weakened ability to fight the disease off. 

This is very clearly documented in the attached chart.  Those with pre-existing conditions and many times more likely to be hospitalized and many times more likely to die.  So is it fair to label a 88 year old with emphysema and heart disease who contracts covid during their hospitalization and dies a covid death?  No they died from old age, and their medical conditions.  Very few young, healthy people, contract covid and are so significantly impacted that they have serious illness or death. 

https://www.mdedge.com/hematology-oncology/article/224039/coronavirus-updates/comorbidities-increase-covid-19-deaths-factor

Edited January 18, 2022 by Smithydog
Added URL to web page with data image.

[Rangers]

11 hours ago, Vince said:

Indeed, well mostly. The vast majority appear with so called "underlying conditions" - impaired immune systems, obesity, old age, etc. "Death from obesity, triggered by COVID" might be a wake up call for many. 

But there were cases of health care workers - relatively young and healthy - who died from covid. In China and New York I recall reading of this in the early outbreaks.

My guess is that they were massively infected, possibly repeatedly, by this novel coronavirus, and they simply couldn't recover. 

Yes you're probably right, I remember that too. The difference in strength between delta and Omicron is massive though. I said it months ago on here but Omicron is the best thing that's happened since day one of the pandemic. All restrictions are very close to being lifted in the UK and Thailand will be the same in the coming weeks. 

[Stonker]

14 hours ago, Vince said:

Lots of people want Thailand to reopen but too many critics are waiting to pounce if it doesn't go smoothly.

Odd that none of them have protested and complained or said so, except for a few farangs - despite "lots of people" complaining and protesting about everything from school uniforms to gay marriage.

"Lots" want financial support, but what evidence do you have of them wanting the borders open?